Appliances: The Future is Battery Powered

This article appeared yesterday in The Washington Post. Since this is usually behind a paywall, I did a complete copy and paste for all to enjoy.

Your stove is the first appliance to get a battery, but not the last

Your appliances, you should know, will come loaded with batteries. We’ll probably have energy storage in our stoves and water heaters, perhaps even our washers and dryers.

Traditionally, batteries’ main purpose was to make gadgets portable. Today, they’re emerging as a shortcut on our path to “electrify everything.”

To switch from fossil fuels, we’ll need to plug in a bunch of new things: our cars, our stoves, our heaters and more. Many homes were not designed to carry this kind of load. Installing high-voltage wires, upgrading panels and rewiring your connection to utility poles is like building an electric highway into your home when all you have is a country road.

These retrofits are expensive — if you can find someone to do them, given the crush of new demand. Instead of rewiring our homes and upgrading grid infrastructure, appliances with batteries will allow us to stash energy around the house for when we need it, eliminating a final barrier to stop burning natural gas and heating oil inside our homes.

This is one of our best shots to decarbonize existing buildings. In the transportation and electricity sector, only a few hundred companies, automakers and utilities, must change their practices to phase out fossil fuels. But tamping down buildings’ emissions requires millions of individual households and property owners to make expensive, unfamiliar investments.

Little batteries are here to help.

Induction stoves

Induction stoves are the first major appliances to come with batteries. While a standard 120-volt plug can handle most daily cooking routines, running an electric oven and four burners draws a blistering 10 kilowatts, equivalent to more than 10 space heaters running full blast simultaneously. To handle that much juice, if only for a few minutes, you need a 240-volt outlet, like the ones for clothes dryers or conventional electric ovens.

Millions of homes do not have one, especially in the kitchen. In my own 1940s condominium, my electrician estimated running the wiring for a 240-volt outlet for an induction stove will cost $3,800. Battery-enabled stoves avoid this by plugging into an existing 120-volt outlet. When a burst of electricity is needed, the battery discharges energy. No new wiring necessary.

These little batteries are not quite here yet. For now, no major manufacturers are integrating batteries into their appliances. Rheem, a global water heater manufacturer, released the first 120-volt water heater heat pump last year, although it doesn’t include energy storage.

But start-ups are rushing into this space.

San Francisco-based Impulse Labs plans to sell its first battery-enabled induction stove in the next year or so. Its 3-kilowatt-hour battery packs enough electricity to roast a Thanksgiving turkey with all the fixings, or cook three meals during a blackout, says founder Sam D’Amico. Channing Street Copper will ship its full-range Charlie model later this year for $5,999 before incentives. Charlie offers the option to plug other appliances into the stove, like your refrigerator or phone, as backup power. Both appliances use batteries to supplement, rather than replace, electricity from the 120-volt outlet. The batteries’ lithium iron phosphate chemistry is more stable and environmentally friendly than traditional lithium-ion batteries in electric vehicles or phones.

Neither is aimed at the lower end of the market, even after generous rebates. But both start-ups say prices will come down, and for people wanting to have backup power storage in their home, it will be much cheaper to buy plug-in-ready batteries within appliances than installing stand-alone energy storage. By some estimates, it is 3 to 10 times more expensive to install equipment like home batteries, compared to the batteries themselves. Eventually, these companies plan to integrate their customers’ batteries into massive networks that represent many megawatts of flexible energy storage.

“We won’t stop at doing stoves,” says D’Amico. “You’ll get a number of appliances, and all of them will come with appropriately sized batteries. As you incrementally electrify your house, you get incremental energy storage. It’s like getting a Tesla Powerwall without ever getting a Powerwall.”

Backing up your home grid

Little affordable batteries could help countries leapfrog into a renewable future, rather than wait for utilities to invest billions of dollars in new transmission, better home connections and energy storage.

Right now, your appliances use little energy for most of the day. Yet each morning and evening, your home’s energy use spikes when water heaters click on or the oven fires up. Multiply this intense burst of electricity by millions of appliances. You can see the problem.

In the United Kingdom, there’s a name for this phenomenon: the kettle surge. During breaks in popular TV programs, millions of electric kettles turn on at once, leading to a massive, destabilizing surge of demand. To meet it, a dedicated “grid energy balancing” team at the national utility uses computer models to forecast electricity consumption, even tracking popular TV dramas. A standard soap opera episode might imply an extra 300 megawatts of power during breaks, but if a main character dies during the episode, the audience might need 600 megawatts or more.

Smoothing out spikes like this means the U.K. must run power plants on standby, or import huge volumes of energy from mainland Europe.

But small batteries could step up to the plate.

Stoves, heat pumps, washers and dryers. Even kettles. At a national scale, these could soak up cheap power when renewables are plentiful, and dispatch it during the peak hours in the mornings and evenings when electricity supplies are tight. As people swap gas for electricity, and less consistent wind and solar energy comes online, this will only become more valuable. It will help manage spikes — and maybe even earn you money from selling power to the grid or dodging peak electricity prices.

Energy companies and appliance manufacturers like Impulse and Channing Street Copper are already vying to manage the megawatts of power stored in millions of appliances.

It seems like a clear climate win. But since battery manufacturing is so energy-intensive, it’s not clear if installing so many batteries guarantees lower overall emissions. “It’s an open question still whether or not getting batteries into the home is on its face a decarbonization strategy,” Wyatt Merrill, who works on building electrification at the Department of Energy, told the climate podcast Volts. “It definitely has the potential to be. But when you think about the entire life cycle of mining lithium and developing the batteries and shipping them around, you really have a hole to dig out of.”

Still, economic forces may usher in a world of little batteries everywhere faster than we think. Priced at more than $10,000, large stationary batteries like Tesla Powerwalls — another solution to support a clean grid — remain too expensive for many homes. With utilities imposing time-of-use rates and curtailing homeowners’ ability to sell solar electricity back to the grid, storage in your home will only become more valuable.

Kyri Baker, an assistant professor of engineering at the University of Colorado at Boulder, says these new appliances can deliver low-cost energy storage at home while building the grid’s capacity to absorb clean, excess energy.

“It’s going to be a game changer,” says Baker. “It really makes financial sense to absorb this [electricity] locally. The best way is to let appliances do it.”


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Post# 1176500 3/29/2023 at 22:10 (393 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)
Checkrate/Likes This article appeared yesterday in The Washington Post. Since this is usually behind a paywall, I did a complete copy and paste for all to enjoy. This may be the true beginning of the end for gas stoves. Your stove is the first appliance to get a battery, but not the last Your appliances, you should know, will come loaded with batteries. We’ll probably have energy storage in our stoves and water heaters, perhaps even our washers and dryers. Traditionally, batteries’ main purpose was to make gadgets portable. Today, they’re emerging as a shortcut on our path to “electrify everything.” To switch from fossil fuels, we’ll need to plug in a bunch of new things: our cars, our stoves, our heaters and more. Many homes were not designed to carry this kind of load. Installing high-voltage wires, upgrading panels and rewiring your connection to utility poles is like building an electric highway into your home when all you have is a country road. These retrofits are expensive — if you can find someone to do them, given the crush of new demand. Instead of rewiring our homes and upgrading grid infrastructure, appliances with batteries will allow us to stash energy around the house for when we need it, eliminating a final barrier to stop burning natural gas and heating oil inside our homes. This is one of our best shots to decarbonize existing buildings. In the transportation and electricity sector, only a few hundred companies, automakers and utilities, must change their practices to phase out fossil fuels. But tamping down buildings’ emissions requires millions of individual households and property owners to make expensive, unfamiliar investments. Little batteries are here to help. Induction stoves Induction stoves are the first major appliances to come with batteries. While a standard 120-volt plug can handle most daily cooking routines, running an electric oven and four burners draws a blistering 10 kilowatts, equivalent to more than 10 space heaters running full blast simultaneously. To handle that much juice, if only for a few minutes, you need a 240-volt outlet, like the ones for clothes dryers or conventional electric ovens. Millions of homes do not have one, especially in the kitchen. In my own 1940s condominium, my electrician estimated running the wiring for a 240-volt outlet for an induction stove will cost $3,800. Battery-enabled stoves avoid this by plugging into an existing 120-volt outlet. When a burst of electricity is needed, the battery discharges energy. No new wiring necessary. These little batteries are not quite here yet. For now, no major manufacturers are integrating batteries into their appliances. Rheem, a global water heater manufacturer, released the first 120-volt water heater heat pump last year, although it doesn’t include energy storage. But start-ups are rushing into this space. San Francisco-based Impulse Labs plans to sell its first battery-enabled induction stove in the next year or so. Its 3-kilowatt-hour battery packs enough electricity to roast a Thanksgiving turkey with all the fixings, or cook three meals during a blackout, says founder Sam D’Amico. Channing Street Copper will ship its full-range Charlie model later this year for $5,999 before incentives. Charlie offers the option to plug other appliances into the stove, like your refrigerator or phone, as backup power. Both appliances use batteries to supplement, rather than replace, electricity from the 120-volt outlet. The batteries’ lithium iron phosphate chemistry is more stable and environmentally friendly than traditional lithium-ion batteries in electric vehicles or phones. Neither is aimed at the lower end of the market, even after generous rebates. But both start-ups say prices will come down, and for people wanting to have backup power storage in their home, it will be much cheaper to buy plug-in-ready batteries within appliances than installing stand-alone energy storage. By some estimates, it is 3 to 10 times more expensive to install equipment like home batteries, compared to the batteries themselves. Eventually, these companies plan to integrate their customers’ batteries into massive networks that represent many megawatts of flexible energy storage. “We won’t stop at doing stoves,” says D’Amico. “You’ll get a number of appliances, and all of them will come with appropriately sized batteries. As you incrementally electrify your house, you get incremental energy storage. It’s like getting a Tesla Powerwall without ever getting a Powerwall.” Backing up your home grid Little affordable batteries could help countries leapfrog into a renewable future, rather than wait for utilities to invest billions of dollars in new transmission, better home connections and energy storage. Right now, your appliances use little energy for most of the day. Yet each morning and evening, your home’s energy use spikes when water heaters click on or the oven fires up. Multiply this intense burst of electricity by millions of appliances. You can see the problem. In the United Kingdom, there’s a name for this phenomenon: the kettle surge. During breaks in popular TV programs, millions of electric kettles turn on at once, leading to a massive, destabilizing surge of demand. To meet it, a dedicated “grid energy balancing” team at the national utility uses computer models to forecast electricity consumption, even tracking popular TV dramas. A standard soap opera episode might imply an extra 300 megawatts of power during breaks, but if a main character dies during the episode, the audience might need 600 megawatts or more. Smoothing out spikes like this means the U.K. must run power plants on standby, or import huge volumes of energy from mainland Europe. But small batteries could step up to the plate. Stoves, heat pumps, washers and dryers. Even kettles. At a national scale, these could soak up cheap power when renewables are plentiful, and dispatch it during the peak hours in the mornings and evenings when electricity supplies are tight. As people swap gas for electricity, and less consistent wind and solar energy comes online, this will only become more valuable. It will help manage spikes — and maybe even earn you money from selling power to the grid or dodging peak electricity prices. Energy companies and appliance manufacturers like Impulse and Channing Street Copper are already vying to manage the megawatts of power stored in millions of appliances. It seems like a clear climate win. But since battery manufacturing is so energy-intensive, it’s not clear if installing so many batteries guarantees lower overall emissions. “It’s an open question still whether or not getting batteries into the home is on its face a decarbonization strategy,” Wyatt Merrill, who works on building electrification at the Department of Energy, told the climate podcast Volts. “It definitely has the potential to be. But when you think about the entire life cycle of mining lithium and developing the batteries and shipping them around, you really have a hole to dig out of.” Still, economic forces may usher in a world of little batteries everywhere faster than we think. Priced at more than $10,000, large stationary batteries like Tesla Powerwalls — another solution to support a clean grid — remain too expensive for many homes. With utilities imposing time-of-use rates and curtailing homeowners’ ability to sell solar electricity back to the grid, storage in your home will only become more valuable. Kyri Baker, an assistant professor of engineering at the University of Colorado at Boulder, says these new appliances can deliver low-cost energy storage at home while building the grid’s capacity to absorb clean, excess energy. “It’s going to be a game changer,” says Baker. “It really makes financial sense to absorb this [electricity] locally. The best way is to let appliances do it.” CLICK HERE TO GO TO Ultramatic's LINK View Full Size

Post# 1176510 , Reply# 1 3/29/2023 at 23:51 (393 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)
Checkrate/Likes Oh yes. It's already here. Look at tools. My neumatic (air powered) nailers are "outdated". People are retiring their air compressors, hoses, extension cords, and air tools and getting the same tools powered with batteries. And we've previously discussed the full size GE 12 volt compressor refrigerator that RV manufacturers have switched to. That same unit is free standing and can be used in our homes and powered off a simple solar system if one chooses. The thing with electric cars: they should all have solar panels built in and have an easy to switch out battery. The cars will most likely outlive the batteries. And the battery tech is constantly evolving. If there were a network and people rented their battery, they could pull into a battery change station anytime (like a gas station), quickly switch out their drained battery for a fully charged one, and be on their way in just a few minutes. I really think these electric cars that have fixed in place batteries are going to end up being least desirable. View Full Size

Post# 1176512 , Reply# 2 3/29/2023 at 23:59 (393 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)
Checkrate/Likes *Really? Want to install a new light fixture somewhere* but don't want to go through the trouble of putting in all the wires and switches? Just screw the fixture to the wall and install a rechargable, dimmable, remote control bulb. mindblowing. CLICK HERE TO GO TO bradfordwhite's LINK View Full Size

Post# 1176529 , Reply# 3 3/30/2023 at 03:16 (393 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))
Checkrate/Likes 9 I don't think this will be as popular as they make up. Batteries are a wear point, they are expensive, they are difficult to handle. I honestly wouldn't want to mix the hottest appliance in my house with batteries. Even IF a wiring job is 1000-2000$ - the price of the battery addition is the same apparently? Tools go battery powered because you move them constantly. You don't move your oven every time you use it. And comparing a battery operated appliance to a solar storage solution is very much missing the point. The special sauce there is the integration.

Post# 1176537 , Reply# 4 3/30/2023 at 06:32 (393 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Checkrate/Likes 1 *Battery powered major appliances* Interesting idea if they�ll be some limited use of it I�m sure, I don�t think you�ll see too many cooking appliances that are battery powered there�s just too much energy use there. As for kettle surge in the UK, it might be time to retire those 3000 W tea kettles and go to 1500 W ones like we have in the US, I love the fast 3000 kettles and I have one that my old boss brought me back from the UK it�s blistering fast but it�s just not necessary to use that much power all at once. Things like a water heater in a home using heat pump technology you can easily produce enough hot water for a family without batteries. It would be easy to program them to use off peak power and heat at night also. John

Post# 1176543 , Reply# 5 3/30/2023 at 09:02 (393 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )
Checkrate/Likes 7 We've had numerous battery tools over the years from different makers and they have all ended up being tossed because of nla batteries. The restore here is littered with them as well, and not just cheap makes either. Same thing with a couple of cordless vacs that thankfully weren't that expensive to begin with.. Nowadays I don't buy anything cordless expecting it to last more than about 3 years tops before it heads to the landfill.

Post# 1176551 , Reply# 6 3/30/2023 at 11:27 (393 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))
Checkrate/Likes 2 *What a coincidence* At about 20:20 Still not sold about the idea. Most induction cooktops over here have power management systems. You just tell the cooktop it can only use x amount of power at a time. So you could limit your cooktop to just pull lets say 10A at a time. Then it will actively manage what each burner is allowed to use. You're only using 1 burner? That gets all the power. You are using more? Then it gets split. So as long as you run a 240V line, it's not necessary it's the full 30A or so. I might be entirely wrong, but all houses in the US should have 240V service. And even if is only 100A, smart power management etc. should make most anything possible with few exceptions. So how much is running a new 240V line? Is my guess of 1000-2000$ that far off in many cases? Especially with the typical US construction type, that can't be much more than a one day task, right?

Post# 1176625 , Reply# 7 3/31/2023 at 02:39 (392 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)
Checkrate/Likes 4 From my experience, batteries are fine for lower power applications. But when push comes to shove, for major energy needs, there's nothing like a gas powered garden tool. As an example, the other day I used a battery powered lawn edger. It worked fine. But when I tried using the same motor for a weed whacker, it kept on stalling out. It wasn't because the battery was out of juice, either. It was because the line would wrap around this or that and cause the motor to shut down. Not good. Never had that problem with a gas powered motor.

Post# 1176628 , Reply# 8 3/31/2023 at 03:34 (392 days old) by qsd-dan (West)
Checkrate/Likes 5 But when push comes to shove, for major energy needs, there's nothing like a gas powered garden tool. Agreed.

Post# 1176634 , Reply# 11 3/31/2023 at 05:58 (392 days old) by Marky_mark (From Liverpool. Now living in Palm Springs and Dublin)
Checkrate/Likes *Garden Tools* Gasoline-powered leaf blowers have been banned in Palm Springs since about 3 years ago. The gardeners initially switched to electric leaf blowers for about 2 weeks and then they reverted to using the banned gasoline-powered ones. Why? Well they told me that the electric one didn't have the power to do a good job. Maybe that's because they bought a crap one. Or maybe none of the electric ones are quite up to the job yet. https://www.palmspringsca.gov/services/sustainability-and-recycling/leaf-blower-ordinance-effective-2019

Post# 1176702 , Reply# 24 3/31/2023 at 21:17 (391 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)
Checkrate/Likes 1 I might be helpful if you read the thread and comprehended the discussion.

Post# 1176729 , Reply# 26 4/1/2023 at 00:33 (391 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)
Checkrate/Likes 1 ALL of my yard care equipment is battery powered----LOVE IT!!!!!No more noisy ,stinking,high maintenance gas motors.I have EGO self propelled push mower-and an EGO 42" ZTR ride mower.These outperform gas mowers I had from the past.The idea of battery powered major appliances doesn't bode well.For those the 240V use is better.And now have an electric car-Toyota BZ4X SUV style car.Love it!!!Just an overnight charge from its 120V charge cord it does just fine.Can get 250 miles per full battery charge.This car does fine for me since I don't go on long car trips.

Post# 1176753 , Reply# 30 4/1/2023 at 09:24 (391 days old) by seedub (South Texas Hill Country)
Checkrate/Likes *Reply #30* Louis, I'm still holding out hope for hydrogen for both automobiles (FCEV) and for aircraft. Airbus has several prototypes and Rolls-Royce claims success in testing a hydrogen fueled jet engine last November. Volkswagen appears to have trashed the idea but Hyundai, Toyota and BMW are still investing heavily in the technology.

Post# 1176629 , Reply# 9 3/31/2023 at 04:33 (392 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))
Checkrate/Likes Again, I think power tools are a different thing. You can get the same power in electric tools, corded or battery, as long as they are designed to deliver it. That is generally more expensive than gas powered to do so, yes, so getting battery powered high power tools is exorbitant in many cases. But, again, in many cases, you don't need that power. Not saying YOU don't need that, but MANY cases don't need it. And I just did some quick reading. The few sources I looked at say that running the wiring is the cheaper part of everything, maybe 30$ per foot. The outlet and breaker with installation are about 500$. So as long as the kitchen and the panel aren't on the exact other side of the house, I don't see a battery powered cooker make much sense TBH.

Post# 1176631 , Reply# 10 3/31/2023 at 05:45 (392 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)
Checkrate/Likes 1 A battery powered cooker makes no sense at all to me. I see more future in whole house batteries. There's a plan for an experiment with storing electricity in the Thialf ice stadium to profit from cheaper electricity at certain hours of the day. Hopefully newer battery system like that will be developed in the future for consumer use so they are lighter and are able to store more energy. There are already a few systems, but we need cheaper and better. www.treehugger.com/best-h...

Post# 1176636 , Reply# 12 3/31/2023 at 06:23 (392 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Checkrate/Likes 2 *Battery powered yard, tools, etc.* Work great, I�ve switched over completely. The only other thing I would use on my property or plug-in tools. I still have a few of those I completely got rid of anything gasoline powered years ago can�t stand the stinky dangerous equipment thousands of people are hurt every year with gasoline Yard tools. I also hated every time I mowed the lawn with a gasoline mower that you have to come in and shower just to get all the stink off your body Rich, you should get some new tools stuff that was made 10 and 20 years ago was not near as good . The band gasoline blowers in DC two years ago. I�m sure there were some growing pains for the landscapers but they�re doing it and I haven�t seen anybody�s yard. That doesn�t look great. Batteries can be good for very high powered items as anybody noticed that they make electric cars now with the equivalent many hundreds of horsepower, lol. I agree that battery powered cooking equipment is probably not gonna be a very big thing. It�s too costly initially, but there will be a place for it in areas were power just isn�t available on demand, John

Post# 1176641 , Reply# 13 3/31/2023 at 07:40 (392 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)
Checkrate/Likes 2 *battery garden tools, etc.* Whole house battery - I've been living off one for almost 20 years. Actually longer - the one I have now is nearing 20 years old. It has been looked after and not over-discharged, and is pretty much as good as new. I hope to get it to 25 or 30 years old before replacing it. Current one is lead-acid wet cells. We have solar and are not connected to the grid. It works great. We have replaced most of our petrol (gasoline) powered garden tools with good quality battery ones, mostly Ego brand. They have been fantastic. Walk-behind mower, chainsaw, pole pruning saw, line trimmer and brushcutter so far, all are really gutsy. The mower is amazing, I'm exhausted before the battery is - 45 min to an hour of hard, hilly, too-long grass cutting on a battery. The petrol brushcutter hasn't been used once since we got the battery one. Similar with the chainsaw - the petrol one has a longer blade and I have needed to use it once or twice in the 3 years + we have had the battery one. I certainly don't miss the temperamental 2 stroke motors, the heat and stink, the noise, the pulling the rope over and over, cursing the damn thing for not starting. Just insert a battery, squeeze the trigger and start work. We are on acreage and it all gets quite a workout. It all recharges off our home solar power system, so effectively costs nothing to run. I have used some cheap battery garden tools and they have been gutless junk. Not a problem with the technology, just with the individual products.

Post# 1176653 , Reply# 14 3/31/2023 at 12:11 (392 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)
Checkrate/Likes *#13* That sounds awesome. You're like a living experiment. Now with technology making things, smaller, stronger, more user friendly.... It's just a fab time to be living.

Post# 1176657 , Reply# 15 3/31/2023 at 12:42 (392 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)
Checkrate/Likes 1 I have had terrible luck with battery powered tools. Lithium batteries dont last me worth squat. I replaced my battery trimmer with a plug in and are very happy going backwards. Lithium powered dustbuster lasted me 2 years and would not hold a charge, same with cordless phones. If I cant plug it in, I dont want it.

Post# 1176658 , Reply# 16 3/31/2023 at 12:49 (392 days old) by kenwashesmonday (Carlstadt, NJ)
Checkrate/Likes 4 My gas powered lawn mower is 33 years old and always starts on the first pull. If it were electric, I wonder how many batteries it would have gone through over 33 years. That said, I do have a battery powered trimmer, hedge clipper, and chain saw, and I think they're wonderful. They are Worx brand and I'm very happy with them. CLICK HERE TO GO TO kenwashesmonday's LINK

Post# 1176664 , Reply# 17 3/31/2023 at 14:16 (392 days old) by robbinsandmyers (Conn)
Checkrate/Likes 4 I think the LAST thing this world needs is to produce more batteries because its going battery powered or hybrid or electric or whatever. We wont ever see a pure green solution in our lifetimes that is a much better option than internal combustion, natural gas, etc depending on application. I think once the day comes it will be something like a regenerative magnet that can create its own power source that will save the day and environment. Batteries are not the answer in their current form. However, a battery made of magnets that can produce power and recharge itself is. The technology is out there, its under our noses just like every other invention was. We just have to discover it.

Post# 1176667 , Reply# 18 3/31/2023 at 15:01 (392 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))
Checkrate/Likes 2 *there is no free energy* Geeze how often do I have to say that this month around here? There will never be such a thing as a "self recharging battery". It is fundamentally impossible in this universe and always will be. There is nothing around that fact. From production to junkyard, electric cars are more environmentally friendly TODAY with our current energy mix. Batteries CAN be recycled - sure that has to happen but is technically feasible. Internal combustion - combustion of any kind in general - can be eliminated 95% of cases today. There are very few (but large) things where that isn't yet possible yet. But current battery tech IS the future. It WILL replace internal combustion engines over the next 30 years. And free energy DOES NOT EXIST.

Post# 1176672 , Reply# 19 3/31/2023 at 17:20 (392 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)
Checkrate/Likes 1 NO, it's not happening in the future. It's NOW. Petroleum vehicles and equipment are like the wringer washers of the 1960s or the candles of the 1920s here in the U.S., reel-to-reel tape players of the 1970s, or asbestos of the 1980s In the 70s and 80s I remember these signs and they used standard flood lights, had a cord and a noisy gas generator at the base if there was no electric near by to plug into. Now, they are brighter LED, silent, have a small solar panel, are reliable, have a battery and charge controller and probably even have a charging station where the workers can recharge their phones. View Full Size

Your stove is the first appliance to get a battery, but not the last

Induction ovens with big batteries solve lots of problems

Post# 1176673 , Reply# 20 3/31/2023 at 17:40 (392 days old) by qsd-dan (West)
Checkrate/Likes 8 If batteries are the future, we need to get our fucking asses in gear with a 100% recycling rate or this will cause far more environmental damage than burning fuel. Currently, only 5% of lithium batteries are recycled vs a 90% recycle rate for lead acid batteries. I'm not letting go of my hydrocarbon producing tools anytime soon.

Post# 1176674 , Reply# 21 3/31/2023 at 17:42 (392 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )
Checkrate/Likes 5 Still the problem is non standarized batteries between all these maker of garden and household tools and appliance. Heck even within a makers lineup there may be some models with a whole other battery type/shape. And then 4 or so years down the road you go to buy a replacement battery and it's NLA, this is super common. Whereas your plug in electric tool will probably last forever.

Post# 1176678 , Reply# 22 3/31/2023 at 18:05 (392 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)
Checkrate/Likes 1 *#21* True. If we don't have already there should be a board or group that standardizes this stuff. The tool manufacturers do seem to be doing a "one battery for all" thing now. I was in the hardware store last month talking to the guy who works there and he also spent like $3000 a couple years ago to convert all his tools. He says he wish he'd waited because he's got all these diff. chargers and batteries and the batteries can go NLA. Now the diff. manufacturers have displays of like 90 different tools and they all use the same battery. They need to take that several steps further and have it a universal battery for ALL tools, regardless of manufacturer And that should be applied to all appliances regardless of manufacturer. I mean one can always change how the battery technology works as long as the plug is still the same. It's like a car battery. I can buy a 12 volt battery and it will fit just about any vehicle regardless of make or age and we know that that technology has changed.

Post# 1176700 , Reply# 23 3/31/2023 at 21:08 (391 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)
Checkrate/Likes *I think some of you are missing the point.* In a nut shell. This is not about any of the cheap, rechargeable batteries currently on the market. This is about providing a solution to millions upon millions of polluting gas stoves being replaced gradually with battery backed electric stoves. Stoves that could operate with any of our 110volt outlets, thus saving millions of apartment buildings the huge cost of converting to 208volt outlets. These new storage batteries are just beginning to come out. And with time, they will become far more affordable, reliable and durable enough to press into service in all stoves and eventually all major appliances. Think of it as a far cheaper, decentralized Power Wall. Conceivably these batteries would be able to operate your appliances for a few days in the event of a power failure. It goes without saying these batteries would be fully recyclable after a long service life. A win-win in my book.

Post# 1176723 , Reply# 25 3/31/2023 at 23:51 (391 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)
Checkrate/Likes *Indeed.* I'm afraid a few have not read the article I posted. C'est la vie.

Post# 1176733 , Reply# 27 4/1/2023 at 00:45 (391 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)
Checkrate/Likes 1 *Guilty as charged.* I still haven't read those links in the first post (too many of them to bother with...) but I get the idea now - fit a stove top with built in battery, which can recharge slowly, at a rate that is supported by a single, standard power outlet, to run the short term high current needs of an electric cooktop. It sounds like a clever solution, though expensive. Probably more useful in USA with 120V supply, less necessary here with 240v at all power outlets. You could just buy a couple of plug in induction hotplates like these... www.kmart.com.au/product/... www.ikea.com/au/en/p/tillreda-po... www.thegoodguys.com.au/tefal-exp... Two of these side by side should be enough, and only cost from AU$150 to AU$300. and when you aren't using them, you can put them away in a cupboard and get back some bench space.

Post# 1176736 , Reply# 28 4/1/2023 at 01:04 (391 days old) by robbinsandmyers (Conn)
Checkrate/Likes 2 *Reply #18* I know there is no such thing as free energy. And if you look at one of my posts in the past you'll remember I said battery technology will only go so far before the laws of physics makes it hit a brick wall and thats the end of that. Batteries will always be toxic to mine and recycle to the planet and are not the answer long term or short term. Bad enough we have as many as we have in the world without adding to them.

Post# 1176745 , Reply# 29 4/1/2023 at 05:12 (391 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)
Checkrate/Likes 3 Unlike gasoline and diesel engines, I don't think batteries are on the end of their development. I expect a new generation in the future that can store more energy in a smaller unit and hopefully will be environmentally friendly too. That said there is a future perhaps for the combustion engine when a fuel can be found that has little to none impact on the environment. Some people talk about synthetic petrol, but I'm not too sure we want to go that way. What we surely not need is more petrol and diesel engines.

Post# 1176772 , Reply# 31 4/1/2023 at 14:31 (391 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)
Checkrate/Likes 5 Chris, Hydrogen is a great solution for cars, trucks and aircrafts. But there are a few problems, the biggest is that a lot of energy is lost producing hydrogen. And then when the hydrogen has to be turned into electricity again, again a lot of energy is lost again. So because of that it's way better to use electricity directly than hydrogen whenever it is possible. This post was last edited 04/01/2023 at 14:48

Post# 1176799 , Reply# 32 4/1/2023 at 18:10 (391 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)
Checkrate/Likes 1 Hydrogen relies on petroleum and is made by petroleum producers so.... of course, we can anticipate who is desperately trying to push this impractical, inefficient narrative.