Thread Number: 93194  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Dexter T-400 Washer Install Torture
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Post# 1178331   4/17/2023 at 00:07 (402 days old) by MaytagNeptune (FireAlarmTechGuy4444 on YouTube. Interlochen MI)        

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Ok so my next big hit might actually be one of those Dexter T-400 Washer extractors, It's going to be so much torture trying to install it, I am aware that I have to pour a 4 to 6" concrete base for it to sit on. My Idea is to pour the 6" pad and bolt the 432 pound behemoth to the concrete pad, adding grout between the machine and the pad and between the pad and the floor, I might look for a 1" pad of rubber to place under the concrete pad over the tile floor to protect the floor, I then would have to take 2 anchor bolts and bolt the concrete pad to the studs in the wall. Definitely a project that me and my dad are NOT looking forward to. Issue 2, I will have to preform 2 modifications to the machine that Dexter does not recommend, First of all, My laundry room floor is on the MAIN floor and is NOT in the Garage or Basement so I am unable to bolt the machine to a proper concrete floor so I am FORCED to pour and build a 6" concrete pad and anchor it to the studs and protect the floor with Rubber and Grout. The Second Problem I have to find a pump that is capable of getting all of the water out of the machine and down the drain within 35 seconds before the machine attempts a spin. My Laundry Room does not support a floor/gravity drain so I am FORCED to decrease the 3" line(Not Recommended by Dexter) to 1.5" and use a pump that is powerful enough to get about 5 or 6 gallons of water out of the machine and down the drain within 35 seconds, Approx 5-8 gallons per fill for approx 20 gallons per cycle as based on the machine specifications. If no such pump exists, I will have to dump the water into a 20 gallon tote slid behind the machine and let the pump do it's work. With either option, my idea is to wire the pump in series with the drain solenoid so the pump is turned on when the drain valve is open. Dexter Thoroughbred series washers thankfully can be wired with either single phase 240 or 3 phase 240 without replacing any parts to convert it. I just change 1 dip switch. They are also very very hardy and are industrial quality, Some of them are so big it's kind of scary, Take the T-1800 for example. The reason for wanting to do this is because it seems that parts for most of my machines are getting harder to find and I know the T-400 will be supported for the rest of the foreseeable future as the T-400 is still being manufactured TODAY and Dexter even sells conversion kits to convert the oldest model to the newest one.

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Post# 1178338 , Reply# 1   4/17/2023 at 02:08 (402 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)        
Could you place the machine somewhere else?

neptunebob's profile picture
I guess I am kind of puzzled why you want to do this installation. If you have to protect the floor underneath the concrete slab with rubber, why are you placing on a finished floor? If you move, what will you do with the concrete slab which will be incredibly heavy? It may be hard to break up if you have to put rebar inside and if you do not place rebar, the concrete itself may not be strong enough to stabilize the washer. If on a main floor over a basement, installing a 3 inch drain line would not be too difficult.

Post# 1178378 , Reply# 2   4/17/2023 at 11:59 (401 days old) by MaytagNeptune (FireAlarmTechGuy4444 on YouTube. Interlochen MI)        
Floor

maytagneptune's profile picture
The floor is standard tile and is nothing fancy. I just don't want to chip it. Grout isn't too difficult to clean up if I move.

Post# 1178389 , Reply# 3   4/17/2023 at 14:48 (401 days old) by Egress (Oregon)        

I'd be worried about potentially exceeding your floors weight capacity with that slab. thats about 1000 pounds of concrete, in addition to however much the washer itself weighs.

Post# 1178390 , Reply# 4   4/17/2023 at 14:55 (401 days old) by pro104 (brooksville florida)        

What you are describing will not work. I have owned laundromats with hardmount machines in them for the last 36 years. The machine must be mounted to a concrete floor and pad. The pad must be poured so that it has rebar in it attaching it to the floor or it will walk. If you anchor it to studs it tear the wall or floor joists up.
If this is a new machine it will for sure void the warranty. I just installed 4 of the in a laundromat and we chipped up the ceramic tile underneath them and mounted steel bases on the concrete to put them on.What you are describing is dangerous.


Post# 1178395 , Reply# 5   4/17/2023 at 15:59 (401 days old) by MaytagNeptune (FireAlarmTechGuy4444 on YouTube. Interlochen MI)        

maytagneptune's profile picture
I didn't see rebar in the floor in the installation video. Guess I will just have to wait for my own place or lug the 432 pound machine down the basement stairs and run water to it. Or Secure it to the floor in the garage. This machine is not new, It's from a place that is upgrading their equipment. Thanks for the response though, I didn't think 100Gs would actually tear up or split the wood joists, even after bolting it to a 400LB concrete pad.

Post# 1178402 , Reply# 6   4/17/2023 at 16:29 (401 days old) by MaytagNeptune (FireAlarmTechGuy4444 on YouTube. Interlochen MI)        
Replies 4 and 5

maytagneptune's profile picture
I kind of don't understand the laws of physics here then. My Frigidaire Gallery GLTF1670AS1 spins at 950RPM The G force is around 269.1 G's The T-400 is only 100G's The Frigidaire Gallery washer's tub is supported by nothing but 2 plastic shock absorbers and 2 springs The Frigidaire Gallery's Tub is 3.1 Cubic FT the T-400 is 4.0 cubic FT I don't really understand how 0.9 cubic feet makes a big difference. The concrete slab weighs in at around 440 pounds. I am pretty sure the floor could handle it but If it really is an issue, I have no choice but to wait it out until I get my own house or I can accommodate a Garage installation.

Post# 1178412 , Reply# 7   4/17/2023 at 19:02 (401 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        

The laws of physics aren't the problem.

 

The Frigidaire Gallery has a suspension system, as you described, this allows for and absorbs the movement of the drum during spin.

 

The hardmount machines have no suspension - the drum is mounted rigidly in the cabinet, hence the need for such a strong mounting to a concrete floor. Deleting springs and shockers, and making it "hard mount" removed the need for periodic replacement of springs and shocks, which would be required all too frequently in constant commercial use, and removes the need for a flexible rubber door boot, which is a common point of failure, especially when the machine is mis-used by customers who don't care.

 

The forces in a hardmount are pretty wild - I have a vintage domestic hardmount top loader - a 1950s Turner Sapphire - and it isn't hard mounted, though it should be - I tried to hold it down when spinning, I couldn't do it, it jumped around madly and bounced me with it.


Post# 1178433 , Reply# 8   4/17/2023 at 23:01 (401 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Here ya go: commerciallaundriesflorida.com/d...


www.washcycle.com/soft-mount-vs-h...

Commercial/industrial washing machines installed anywhere above ground floors usually are soft mount. Forces generated during extraction would otherwise be felt through entire building if machine or machines were installed on higher floors. Not to mention overtime what all those forces might do to parts of building. It is possible I suppose if one was designing a new building to be done from ground up to cope with forces generated by a hard mount washer, but why bother with that time and expense when soft mount machines are available.










Post# 1178434 , Reply# 9   4/17/2023 at 23:02 (401 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Installing Dexter washer/extractor:






Post# 1178447 , Reply# 10   4/18/2023 at 07:56 (401 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Another, this time SQ.






Post# 1178485 , Reply# 11   4/19/2023 at 00:36 (400 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I can't help with your question but I've always thought it would be so cool to have one of those laundromat front loaders at home... I've rarely gone to the laundromat in my life but I totally remember using the FL washers a few times and wishing I had one...In fact, when I got my FL washer (for home) in 2005, I remember being disappointed because it was nothing like a laundromat front loader. I think early on that's what everyone who got a FL washer was expecting...But I'm totally over that now...still would be super cool to have one of these.

Post# 1178487 , Reply# 12   4/19/2023 at 01:41 (400 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)        

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Installing a bolt down commercial front loading washer on a raised foundation or on a main floor of a house with a basement will cause and earthquake when it goes into spin since it’ll be shaking the floor. Would scare the hell out of me if I installed a bolt down commercial front loading washer on the main floor of a house with a basement since it make me think a 7.0 earthquake is about to happen.

Post# 1178515 , Reply# 13   4/19/2023 at 13:34 (399 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT)        
So what’s generally the best way to install a bolt down

adam-aussie-vac's profile picture
Machine while still allowing it to be moved? And by moved I mean like when you have to actually move from place to place, As I own two vintage bolt down machines, which have a capacity of less than 4 1/2 kg and I do want to have them installed but my mum is not gonna let me bolt them down in the house or the garage, The garden shed does have a concrete pad but I don’t know how thick it is

Post# 1178516 , Reply# 14   4/19/2023 at 13:41 (399 days old) by MaytagNeptune (FireAlarmTechGuy4444 on YouTube. Interlochen MI)        
Reply 11

maytagneptune's profile picture
The Home and Commercial Coin operated Neptunes are the same machine internally.

Post# 1178547 , Reply# 15   4/19/2023 at 20:40 (399 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Generally unless they are being replaced hard mount washers of all sorts aren't "moved". They are designed to be repaired where they are so that's sorted.

Things will vary by terms of lease but generally in most of USA commercial/retail leases state anything permanently affixed to walls, floors or ceilings becomes property of landlord. Many a LL has gotten a ready made laundromat because previous tenant for whatever reasons went out of business and couldn't get those machines out.


Post# 1178650 , Reply# 16   4/20/2023 at 19:04 (398 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
Dexter washer

A Dexter washer would be a great addition to have for extra heavy loads such as dirty jeans and towels.

Post# 1178665 , Reply# 17   4/20/2023 at 21:18 (398 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Unless one has a particular wish or reason to have a Dexter or any other hard mount commercial washer there really isn't a need IMHO. Speed Queen make and sells a perfectly decent "commercial" washer for domestic/OPL use that is soft mount and thus far less bother to install.

Indeed FWIU SQ front loader sold for home or OPL use aren't that much different under bonnet if at all from laundromat or whatever other commercial/industrial use.

Remember early front loaders offered by Bendix for home use were hard mount, this was something that helped dinged them in sales.






Post# 1183266 , Reply# 18   6/23/2023 at 12:09 (334 days old) by MaytagNeptune (FireAlarmTechGuy4444 on YouTube. Interlochen MI)        

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I found a safe workaround. I'll just install the machine in the garage. The garage is literally right behind the laundry room wall and the floor in the garage is thick enough to support the machine.

Post# 1183394 , Reply# 19   6/25/2023 at 09:37 (333 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT)        
That’s absolutely exciting, how would the machine drain and

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All that good stuff?

Post# 1183401 , Reply# 20   6/25/2023 at 14:12 (332 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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It has been done before:

 




 

 

 

@MarkwpDuet: If everyone was like me, washers like these would be a LOT more common homes. It doesn't make sense to me why a washer should last less than 60 years, spend so much time sensing, balancing, coasting, ect or take longer than 35 minutes to clean an average load. These machines are no nonsense getting the job done right the first time around.

 

 

I'm still with others, the machine needs to be bolted to a concrete floor with the concrete itself being re-enforced enough and thick enough for the forces involved. Even an ordinary garage floor may not be well suited for the task. I'd consult a structural engineer or contact Alliance directly on what they specifically have in mind when thinking about a bolt down installation.

 

The other option would be finding a way to sell this washer and use the money toward a soft mount Unimac or Dexter.     

 

I hope you find something that works out.


Post# 1183438 , Reply# 21   6/25/2023 at 20:50 (332 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
In a basement is different than over one.

Yes, people have installed commercial hard mount washers in residences or other buildings in basements. Main issue again is these machines need to be on solid flooring with several feet of concrete. That or still solid flooring but with some sort of solid base anchored into a concrete floor.

Drain wise you need a trough/pit floor drain or at least last one. Some models may have ability to be equipped with pumps but most just have dump valves.


Post# 1183484 , Reply# 22   6/26/2023 at 16:34 (331 days old) by MaytagNeptune (FireAlarmTechGuy4444 on YouTube. Interlochen MI)        
Concrete Thickness

maytagneptune's profile picture
In Dexter's Installation video and a phone call with them as well. they said the floor does not need to be reinforced with rebar.

Post# 1183504 , Reply# 23   6/26/2023 at 20:25 (331 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Bolt down front load washers

combo52's profile picture
There’s just absolutely no reason to try to use a machine like this in a home. None of the bolt down washer spin fast enough to be worth a darn.

Speed Queen makes a very good non-bolt down machine that spins at 1200 RPMs there’s no reason to use one of these is a regular machine. It’s cool don’t get me wrong.

We have a bolt down Speed Queen that we may hook up at the museum someday along with an extractor and the big Speed Queen commercial gas dryer.

The only reason we may use this boat down machines for extremely large loads. But if you’re going to use one of these, you really get need to get an extractor.

John.


Post# 1183514 , Reply# 24   6/26/2023 at 23:17 (331 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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It's been so long since I've been in a laundromat I forgot the sounds these FL's make....

It's funny...back when FL's were new I think most of us expected this kind of action but they are totally different.

It would be so nice if the home FL's could spin this quickly without deciding if it's safe to spin or not...I think that part can sometimes extend the cycle by 10 min's... maybe 15... It's just something you have to adapt to then you don't think much about it after that...


Post# 1183521 , Reply# 25   6/27/2023 at 01:46 (331 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
@MaytagNeptune...

You're getting closer!















Post# 1183526 , Reply# 26   6/27/2023 at 06:59 (331 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT)        
Combo52

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Do you have any photos of the extractor?

Post# 1183566 , Reply# 27   6/27/2023 at 16:11 (330 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Generally hard mount washer/extractors do not offer high final speed speeds as soft mount. Thus yes, often wash coming out of laundromat and other machines that are former will have higher residual moisture than latter. But there is a method to that madness.

First and foremost laundromat owners tend to make their money on dryers. Thus final high speed spin for washers isn't always something in their best interest. This is particularly true since many customers vastly over dry (and thus over pay).

You see people load dryer at launderettes and then put in far too much money to thing will dry for an hour more or less. This when load of washing is dried within 30 minutes or so. People just load up driers, pay huge amounts of money then go away for an hour, hour and one-half, etc... When they return not only are things over dried but crisp!

For all the noise and pfaffing about large SQ front loaders do at my local launderette things come out far wetter than my Miele or AEG washers at home.

Separate extractors such as those once offered by Bock, American Laundry Machinery and others long have vanished from laundromats and even commercial/industrial laundries. You might find a few here and there but liability issues for both those used by customers and employees simply made them too huge a risk.

Truth to tell once washer/extractors came along there really wasn't a need for separate extractors. Yes, they did offer benefit of removing more water from items thus cutting drying time, but again liability and other issues just made them obsolete.

Finally arrival of gas (natural or propane) or electric dryers at least for laundromat or industrial laundries made high final extraction slightly less of a bother. Laundries long had and still do have steam heated dryers, but gas and or electric dryers can run at higher temps than steam which means shorter drying times.

Some laundromat owners may have changed things over years in name of energy efficacy and or to save bit of money, however historically laundromat dryers ran pretty hot. They had to in order to bake out all that water and give fast turnaround times. You'll notice in most laundromats the ratio of washers to dryers favors former.

By using simple maths a planner or owner of a laundromat or even commercial laundry can figure out how many dryers are needed per washer.



Post# 1183577 , Reply# 28   6/27/2023 at 18:58 (330 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Tagging onto above, there are OPL and coin op dryers with moisture sensors. Former have no issues with such equipment, latter OTOH often faces push back from customers.

You know the sort; Mrs. Nora Neat who has her ways with laundromats and won't be told. If she wants to load up a dryer with excess time and thus money to bake her wash to a crisp no one is going to tell her otherwise.

Thus owners of mats often have to do extensive education explaining how dryers with moisture sensors work. Even then you're going to get a percentage of customers moaning their wash isn't dry to their standards.

cleaningandlaundryequipment.com/...

mn.gov/commerce-stat/pdfs/commer...



Post# 1183596 , Reply# 29   6/27/2023 at 23:12 (330 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

A machine which spins slow due to the lack of electronics, error codes, or suspension, is worth it alone IMO. 

 

Most older FLs regardless of the type or brand spun at relatively low RPMs.


Post# 1183597 , Reply# 30   6/27/2023 at 23:52 (330 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Excluding what there was of American front loaders by 1980's or so such machines in Europe had final spin speeds between 800 to 1100 rpms.

OOB systems varied; my Miele W1070 will attempt some sort of balancing before spinning, but once that timer moves over to "spin" that is what will happen. If load is not balanced am here to tell you that washer will bang, clang and even move from drum movements. Successive Miele models developed systems where if OOB was detected washer would abort spin. Then either attempt to redistribute load and try again or whatever.

Changes in OOB controls for front loaders came part and parcel with sophisticated computer systems that allowed greater control of motor and drum movements/rhythms.

My older Miele washer has two spin speeds; 900 and 1100, and only two drum rhythms. Latter is regular tumbling (clockwise for "X", pause, counter clockwise for "Y", pause, etc... Then there is distribution which is used while machine drains, before spinning, and for "gentle/wool/delicates". These latter cycles are just extended versions of regular tumble rotations.

OTOH the more modern AEG washers have various drum rhythms suited for wide range of fabrics. Machine also has far more control of motor and drum so in conjunction with feedback can cope with OOB loads either before they start, attempt to repair situation if it has occurred, or maybe spin at slower speed than selected if at all.

One downside to this (depending upon how one looks at things) is since modern front loaders by and large are designed to avoid badly OOB loads they aren't often as ruggedly built.

My older Miele is built to last! The AEG washer has far thinner metal outer cases, less robust shocks,

My newer model AEG Lavamat toplader would never spin like this; it's just not going to happen.





My AEG Lavamat front loader won't likely spin like this as well:





It might do this however. You can see this Miele washer is really trying to get that load of single bath towel within proper parameters so it can start spinning.






Post# 1183599 , Reply# 31   6/27/2023 at 23:59 (330 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Another thing;

High rpm spin speeds for both domestic top or front loading washers wasn't huge deal in USA (or much of Europe for that matter) historically.

In USA no one bothered because it was assumed people just bunged things into dryers where all that water would be baked out. Europe sort of same but less so since hanging things up to dry/line drying is or was still big.

Then came push to save resources (energy) and thus washers got faster spin speeds.

www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/...


Post# 1183601 , Reply# 32   6/28/2023 at 00:04 (330 days old) by MaytagNeptune (FireAlarmTechGuy4444 on YouTube. Interlochen MI)        
@Launderess

maytagneptune's profile picture
What do you mean I'm getting closer? You mean that I am thinking more for a proper installation. The way I am going to get water to the machine is that my laundry room is conveniently behind the back garage wall. To drain I'm going to dump the machine into a plastic tote that is the same size as the water capacity and use a submersible pump to quickly evacuate the water from the tote and send it down the drain. After I get the machine and before I set the anchors, I'll probably call Dexter again to verify that my floor is thick enough or for instructions on how to easily increase thickness.

Post# 1183603 , Reply# 33   6/28/2023 at 00:56 (330 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
"You mean that I am thinking more for a proper installat

launderess's profile picture
Yes, that is what one meant.

Having moved on from idea of installing at original location the next choice seems more doable thus you're one step closer.


Post# 1183604 , Reply# 34   6/28/2023 at 00:59 (330 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
I have a question...

launderess's profile picture
How are you going to get washer to "dump" water into a plastic tote or other container?

Have seen set ups where washers drained into a large bucket or other container, then submirsible pump sent water up and out into a sink to drain. But if washer doesn't have a pump gravity will only push water up but so high.



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