Thread Number: 93551  /  Tag: Modern Dryers
BSH dryers are one of the most popular ones in the world even though they're not liked here. Why ? 		[Down to Last]

automaticwasher.org's exclusive eBay Watch:
scroll >>> for more items --- [As an eBay Partner, eBay may compensate automaticwasher.org if you make a purchase using any link to eBay on this page]
Post# 1182127   6/9/2023 at 04:04 (324 days old) by wholelottared (Turkey)        

Bosch / Siemens dryers are not liked much in this forum because of their: lacking reversing drum function, lack of an inverter compressor and apparently higher dryer temps (haven't checked this myself, mine is a+++ so maybe it's better) but still, they're still the number 1 brand for tumble dryers at almost everywhere (excluding USA, appliances there are really different).

Personally, as a Bosch Home Professional WTX87EH0TR owner, I love my dryer too. I don't get the so-called balling thing, probably because I load my sheets/bed lining etc with some other things. About the inverter thing, from what I know my device runs at the A+++ mode all the time and it can't lower or higher the power since it's not an inverter. That isn't a problem for me since i'm completely fine with it running on A+++ mode all the time, which would also result in lower drying temperature probably. Self cleaning function is also fixed in newer generations and they don't get clogged anymore.

So I wanted to ask here, if they're lacking those features and maybe even more compared to their rivals, why are they still so highly preferred? What makes people love them and recommend them to other people? What are your thoughts? Discuss.

  View Full Size



Post# 1182149 , Reply# 1   6/9/2023 at 15:47 (323 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

They SelfClean system has been a turn off for a long time.
They are getting to a point where clogging isn't a big issue, and where even if it happens, you can resolve most issues quite easily.
But that's only really the case now after introducing the AutoClean system and thus going to one uniform machine base unit with all the improvements.


Balling is one of the things that kept me from them.
Trying to dry the type of comforter or matress cover I use (large, comparably thin but dense cotton) in a non reversing dryer is a NIGHTMARE. Too large to dry anything else with them.

The only reason they weren't reversing until that very recent new model line was - and I kid you not - that they wanted to design a cheaper, more efficent heatpump dryer back when they first started making them in 2007.
They did that by eliminating the seperate fan and drum motors common in HP dryers back then, unifying them into one. To keep airflow high enough, they optimized the fan for one operating direction.
And so - they thought - why reverse at all?
And even though people complained FOR A DECADE, even through the introduction of the inverter motors, they just kept not doing it, because they never did.
There is a line in the service manual covering the drum motor inverter that specifically highlights that there is no major communication between the inverter and the main PCB since it only has to run at one speed in one direction - like that's a feature?!?

One redeeming thing is that - in general - dryers with inverter drum motors tend to tangle less. They can keep the speed VERY consitently. A normal induction motor will waver up and down when a loads starts balling up, causing the heavier parts of the load to drop even earlier, making balling worse quicker.



Inverter compressors are another topic.
I don't think these were ever a negative? The inverters used have prooven pretty reliably.
It's just you no longer need them to build fast efficent dryers.

There is currently no dryer in any BSH brand lineup that uses an inverter compressor.
There are plans to introduce them again in a few years. Main reason to reintroduce them is what is projected as efficency targets for the new tumble dryer label.
Today, you can reach A+++ -10% and that is only doable with an inverter compressor from what I understand. And that - as far as I have heared through the grape vines - is a B on the new label. With some further tunig, A should be doable.
As a nice bonus, those inverters allow to speed up drying at the cost of some efficency or to more actively control temperatures for delicate drying.

My current dryer has an inverter compressor and I run it on Eco all the time, too. Speed mode could save me up to half the time, but uses up to double the energy while drying WAY hotter.
It's nice to have the option, and to have pretty quick special cycles like a Hygiene dry cycle under 2h.

Post# 1182156 , Reply# 2   6/9/2023 at 16:36 (323 days old) by wholelottared (Turkey)        
Replying to henene4

 Thank you for your insights @henene4 , it was definitely so interesting to read this. I also can't believe they went this long without a reversing function yeah. And even on new models I think they only reverse on 1 program, they're still so stubborn about it for some reason. I wonder why.

I also have a question for you now, since I can't be sure about it. Since my device is A+++ and doesn't have an inverter compressor, does this mean that literally any program on the dryer is running on the eco mode? Like from what i'm thinking now, it probably can't even control it's temperature since the compressor only runs in one speed, and the differences between programs are only the lengths. Am I right? For example, cottons have an eco label, but actually all programs are running at eco mode in this logic, since compressor power is either 0% or 100%. And when it's 100%, it's A+++ mode right? This part really confuses me when I think about it. Let's say that there are 2 dryers without inverter compressors, the only difference is that one is A++ and other one is A+++ (just like the models in BSH). Does this mean that A+++ one isn't only more efficient but do they also run in lower temperatures? That's what i'm wondering now.

Also, the only thing low temperature option does is, from my testings, it turns on the fan at the front more frequently and more earlier. Am I correct about this? I am thinking to turn on low heat mode all the time which would make the fan run on all programs, would this be damaging/dangerous for the applience in the long term, like would the fan cause more dirt/dust inside the machine?

Would love to hear from you again, thank you so much!!

Post# 1182161 , Reply# 3   6/9/2023 at 17:12 (323 days old) by Mrlaundry1011 (South Wales, UK)        
A+++ 10%

 Aren’t all new Miele tumble dryers A+++ -10% with the new bases? As long as it’s a eco speed model that is. They also only have normal compressor unless you have the passion.

Post# 1182162 , Reply# 4   6/9/2023 at 17:20 (323 days old) by wholelottared (Turkey)        
Replying to Mrlaundry101

 I was actually going to get a Miele instead of this, but I just can't stand their loud clock ticking noise that their sensor makes. I see from people that even if you replace it the noise comebacks after few months, and I absolutely hate noises like that so I didn't get it.

Post# 1182217 , Reply# 5   6/10/2023 at 09:28 (322 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

There are a few Miele models that are A+++ -10%.
They said something that they would completely shift to that - but the one non MTouch model that was A+++ -10% is no longer on the site, and the others I ain't sure about.
I'll check later when I have my tablet on hand.

Beko had a model that was A+++ -10% and wasn't inverter from what I read - but I never found out how they did improve the efficiency then.



And yes, any HP dryer that dosen't have an Inverter compressor is always either running at full power or isn't.
Calling that "Eco" is kind of redundant then - cause there is only one mode.

The label cycle has some differences anyway.
On models that can reverse it often dosen't at all. There is a higher threshold until the cooling fan comes on usually. Dryness level is set at a 0% residual humidity target - which makes the actual result feel almost dry, but as if they need 5 more minutes. For example, if you download the manuals for the BSH dryers that can reverse, you will see the usage table lists the target for Eco Cupboard Dry at 0%, and normal cupboard dry at -1,5% (basically a few minutes of timed drying added).

Post# 1182219 , Reply# 6   6/10/2023 at 10:11 (322 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Miele A+++ -10%

 OK, so, this is kind of odd.

Mieles dryers at 8kg and A+++ do appear to use less than other dryers in that class - but they aren't labeled as A+++ -10%.
They use 0.165kWh per kg on the full load label test and run 20.625min/kg.
Or 0.1875kWh/kg at 25min/kg for a half load.
They definetly do not have an inverter compressor - their parts diagramm shows the 2 normal electronics (power board and control board) AND their base units are labeled as 50Hz only.

The 9kg dryers use 0.172kWh/kg at 20,444min/kg. Or 0.187kWh/kg at 24min for the half load.
They have the same setup as the smaller dryers control wise and also label the machine base as a 50Hz only part.

The 4 dryers labeled as A+++ -10% (Passion, and 3 other MTouch models) use 0.16333kWh/kg at 24.444min/kg. Or 0,173kWh/kg at 29.111min/kg for the half load.
They all have 2 adittional control units AND the base units are labeled as 50Hz and 60Hz.
One of the control units appears to be for the steam functionality - and one has a beefy heatsink, that's the compressor inverter.

My A+++ -10% dryer uses 0.166kWh/kg at 26min/kg for a full load.
Or 0,191kWh/kg at 30.857min/kg.



So - Mieles -10% labeled dryers ARE generally more efficent than all their other dryers.
Their 8kg EcoSpeed dryers however are more efficent per kg than my -10% dryer.

So my best guess is that some rounding or load size technicality makes the miss the -10% label just barely.

Post# 1182220 , Reply# 7   6/10/2023 at 10:33 (322 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
Got a BOL Bosch A++ dryer no self cleaning condenser, no see through door the only thing upscale I insisted on was a stainless steel drum.
Compared to my previous Electrolux based (but still German made) AEG condenser it is very energy efficient, silent and even though it runs hot for a heatpump dryer it is still much gentler on clothes than the condenser.
The AEG reversed every now and then but it didn`t help much about tangling and I think the non reversing Bosch is still doing a better job.
The only thing I don`t like about the Bosch is that a lot of moisture is released into the room. Good ventilation is a must.

But to answer the question why they are so popular even though they have a lot of drawbacks compared to their competitors I can only speak for myself and this means I wanted a simple no frills good value for the money dryer that gets the job done and that`s what I got.
I was also looking for something reliable that hopefully won`t break down as soon as the warranty has expired. Time will tell but I`m very confident.

Post# 1182221 , Reply# 8   6/10/2023 at 12:30 (322 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Simplicity

That's the one thing one can certainly give to the BSH dryers.

There isn't much special compared to the "cheaper" brands like Beko/Arcelik. However, they are that little bit better quality wise.

And since you can count the actual parts that could break and make sense replacing on your two hands on any brand, getting a cheap entry BSH dryer can make for a very good work horse.

Post# 1182380 , Reply# 9   6/12/2023 at 07:45 (320 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
On the Miele A+++ -10% thing

 I had some spare time right now, and did some searching and calculation.

The EU label gives efficency classes via something called an "Energy Efficency Index", short EEI.
That compares the actual, weighted usage to a hypothetical appliance basically.

The formulas are somewhat convoluted on first glance, but have to take a lot of stuff into account to give them a certain "fairness" and "meaning".
Thoughts that went into there are things like the average wash load still being less than 4kg - thus half loads are slightly more weighted, and smaller appliances get a slight general advantage.
Further they take into account standby usage by the minute, so the formulas look confusing, but are mostly just adjusting for that.



Anyway, the A+++ label is given for any EEI below 24. So, to get the nominum "-10%", the EEI has to be below 21.6.

My VZug dryer at 7kg reaches an EEI of 21.21, or "-11.625%".
Mieles more efficent, TOL dryers reach an EEI of 21.49, or "-10,458%".
Mieles 8kg dryers "only" reach an EEI of 21.66, so just "-9.75%".

Of course, I wasn't on the engineering team there - but I don't think you fall short by that little because you couldn't get there.
I am almost certain that was a marketing decission, so that they still don't do reverse false advertising (as in their dryers would be -10%, but they just don't label it) but can say "Oh, you can spend more for more efficency".



Forum Index:       Other Forums:                      


Comes to the Rescue!

The Discuss-o-Mat has stopped, buzzer is sounding!!!
If you would like to reply to this thread please log-in...

Discuss-O-MAT Log-In



New Members Click Here To Sign Up.



                     

automaticwasher.org home
Discuss-o-Mat Forums
Vintage Brochures, Service and Owners Manuals
Fun Vintage Washer Ephemera
See It Wash!
Video Downloads
 Audio Downloads
Picture of the Day
Patent of the Day
Photos of our Collections
The Old Aberdeen Farm
Vintage Service Manuals 		Vintage washer/dryer/dishwasher to sell?
Technical/service questions?
Looking for Parts?
Website related questions?
Digital Millennium Copyright Act Policy
Our Privacy Policy