Thread Number: 94141  /  Tag: Vintage Automatic Washers
Rebuilding an early 90s Direct Drive
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Post# 1188340   8/23/2023 at 21:24 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        

stuftrock1's profile picture
I recently started thread #94062 asking for help removing the inner tub of a Whirlpool Direct Drive. Now that I finally got that out, I felt I should start a more generalized thread of my progress rebuilding this thing. It looks like a BOL model unfortunately, but overall is in fantastic shape. Mechanically I can't find anything wrong with it. The coupler is in good shape, neutral drain still works, and the clutch and brake looks really good.

In my attempts to get the inner tub out, it has developed a very small leak on the center post. There are 3 seals that could have broken and I don't know which one it is. Could either be the top agitator shaft seal, middle spin tube seal, or bottom center post seal. I don't think it's the agitator shaft seal because there was no evidence of water on the agitator shaft and clutch, but it and the spin tube seal look disgusting so I would like to go ahead and replace them both. Problem is I don't exactly know where to find replacement seals and I don't know how to replace them.

I will post pictures here shortly.





Post# 1188343 , Reply# 1   8/23/2023 at 22:42 by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Thereís only one seal to worry about

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If water is leaking, itís likely the rubber seal that seals the plastic outer tub to the center post.

If water is going down the agitator shaft or the spin tube, you have much bigger problems once water starts getting into the mechanical parts.

Often times I just clean the outer tub, seal, thoroughly and use 3M marine sealant on the outside of the generous coating and it will never leak. You donít even have to take it apart or remove the outer tub.


Post# 1188374 , Reply# 2   8/24/2023 at 07:57 by BlockEight88 (Hobart, IN)        
Seal

blockeight88's profile picture
When I rebuilt my 1994 Kenmore DD, I changed out the tub seal and did what you did, John. It's perfect now. I've seen some YouTube videos where people don't use any sealants.

Post# 1188392 , Reply# 3   8/24/2023 at 12:24 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        
Pictures

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As promised here are some pictures of my progress.

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Post# 1188421 , Reply# 4   8/24/2023 at 17:43 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        
A few more pictures I forgot to add earlier

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These pictures show the newly cleaned outer tub and focus on each of the 3 seals along the drive shaft.

I also noticed this thing spins incredibly slow, even for an older washer, and also has this very loud low pitched hum, but only on the spin cycle. Itís been probably 15 years since Iíve last used a DD so maybe my memory is just wrong, but I donít think this is normal for them. Any idea whatís causing this, and how to fix?


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Post# 1188462 , Reply# 5   8/25/2023 at 02:21 by Stan (Napa CA)        
The last time

stan's profile picture
I fixed a leak, it that turned out to be the the black rubber seal (donut) that seals the plastic tub to the center post. (Inexpensive part)
That required taking the plastic tub out of machine. So that leak problem was solved.
But I do remember having trouble getting the inner tub back on the post correctly.
My first attempt caused the spin to sound off somehow and an uneven spin. I ended up taking the inner tub back out to check, and found that I didnít have it seated right. I had to keep lifting the tub off the post then rotating it, siting back down a couple of times, until I felt it drop down onto the post in the correct position.
Then put the tub nut back on and retested and finally got it perfect. Fast smooth spin.
John will know more but thatís what worked for me.
You may want to order that part (tub seal) and be mindful of the inner tub position in relation to the post when reinstalling.
What did you use to get the outside of the inner tub clean?


Post# 1188484 , Reply# 6   8/25/2023 at 11:49 by RyneR1988 (Indianapolis)        

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Slow spin on a direct drive washer usually indicates a worn clutch. However, you state the clutch looks fine so we can probably rule that out.

My DD had a bad clutch and it wasn't necessarily a slow spin but it did take a while to ramp up to full speed.

You mention a loud humming sound. I've noticed that the motor hums a lot more on low speed cycles than on high, so I'm wondering if you're mistakenly using a low spin cycle? Not trying to treat you like an idiot but sometimes in trying to diagnose a problem we overlook the most obvious situation so I just had to check. :D

Like Stan, I'm wondering if the rubber seal has either deteriorated or maybe just come out of alignment with all the monkeying around when cleaning the tubs. Definitely worth checking into.

Just some thoughts from an average dude, not a repairman, so take them with a grain of salt.

Ryne


Post# 1188489 , Reply# 7   8/25/2023 at 13:39 by Good-Shepherd (New Jersey)        
here are some pictures

Peww, those DD tubs can really get crudded up for some reason.

Post# 1188492 , Reply# 8   8/25/2023 at 15:34 by BlockEight88 (Hobart, IN)        
Reply 7

blockeight88's profile picture
Only when people are repeatedly doing cold water washes, using cheap liquid detergents and fabric softener.

With consistent warm/hot water washers and with bleach that won't happen.


Post# 1188496 , Reply# 9   8/25/2023 at 16:05 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        
Reply 6

stuftrock1's profile picture
Photo 13 in reply 3 shows a close up of the clutch. This is my first time actually working on a DD so maybe that clutch is more worn out than it looks to me. Itís possible it could be on the low speed, but this washer has no direct speed control dial/buttons, and itís the final spin on the regular wash cycle, so I donít think it should be the low speed. But like Iíve said, I donít know a whole lot about DDís, this is a learning process for me.

Stan, I havenít gotten around to cleaning the inner tub yet. I donít plan on doing that until Iím ready to put the tub back in. I think Iíll just use basic kitchen cleaner on the counter balance ring and then oven cleaner on the porcelain. That stuff worked wonders on the inner tub of my A512.


Post# 1188505 , Reply# 10   8/25/2023 at 17:08 by RyneR1988 (Indianapolis)        
Reply #9

ryner1988's profile picture
My apologies, I'm blind so I can't help you based on photos, perhaps someone else will chime in about the clutch issue.

If it were me on a machine that old I'd replace the clutch in any case. It couldn't hurt. Spring for the heavy-duty clutch if you can and it'll last virtually forever.

Keep us updated.

Ryne


Post# 1188522 , Reply# 11   8/25/2023 at 20:21 by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

It's a six-pad clutch (instead of 3-pad) and looks good OK to me, although removing the clutch band from the drum would confirm the condition.

The basket drive/brake assembly also should be inspected.


Post# 1188525 , Reply# 12   8/25/2023 at 21:29 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        
Clutch pads

stuftrock1's profile picture
Removed the clutch ring and got a couple pictures of the pads. They look good to me.

The brake pads and drive assembly also look fine. Mechanically this washer works great, just that slow spin (even with the tub removed) and small leak. Already got a new center post seal on order. Still donít fully trust the two upper seals though.


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Post# 1188543 , Reply# 13   8/26/2023 at 08:19 by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Slow, spin speed, direct, drive washer

combo52's profile picture
The clutch looks fine, best test is to try to rotate the clutch band when itís inside the clutch drum with your fingers you should barely be able to do it. It should take a lot of force. If it turns easily, itís worn out it does not appear to be very worn in your picture,

The bigger picture is how can you tell itís turning slowly thereís really no way especially with no load that the shaft cannot be turning at the proper 650 RPMs, the motor Hass to be turning at the correct speed. Itís controlled by the power supply in your home at 60 cycles per second. The best way to see if a washer like this is spinning properly is to take some terry wash clause out that Iíve gone through the full high speed spin cycle, and if you cannot easily ring water out of them, the machine is working fine.

You can also compare the performance of this machine to your MaytagĎs that you have rebuilt. This machine spins a little better than a Maytag, so the clothes should be a little dryer. You could try spinning them in both machines and weigh them afterwards, the exact same load.

The upper spin tube and agitator shaft seals are very important to keep moisture out of the bearings.

The best way to tell if theyíre still good is to make sure there is no groove worn in the plating on the shafts which quickly turns to a rusty groove. If you have this condition, the seals are probably badly worn. If you donít just clean the seals and repack with a Greece for the top one and oil under the second one and reassemble the machine it should be good for many years.

These top seals are difficult to replace. You really need a special tool to push them in place, most times, if theyíre badly worn, and you replace the brake assembly and the tripod that has the bearings and seals in it, becomes expensive very quickly.

John


Post# 1188570 , Reply# 14   8/26/2023 at 15:22 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        

stuftrock1's profile picture
The clutch band is very difficult to turn by hand, so it's definitely fine.

I think what's going on with the spin is that it's spinning on the low speed, because that low pitched hum is very similar to my Maytag on low speed. It is also noticeably much slower than my Maytag. I don't understand why it would spin on low speed on the final spin of the regular cycle though.

There is no rust on the agitator shaft thankfully. There are a couple grooves but they look perfectly normal and superficial. I have not taken the brake assembly and spin tube out yet, I'll update you on how that looks when I have time to work on it again. I would very much rather not buy a new brake assembly and tripod because I am rebuilding this for the purpose of reselling for a profit, and since this is a BOL model, I am very limited on how much money I can put into it.

I do remember when I was trying to get the tub out and I was pouring hot water on the center post to try to break it loose, the water knocked a good chunk of grease out of the upper agitator shaft seal.


Post# 1188594 , Reply# 15   8/26/2023 at 20:59 by Stan (Napa CA)        
I know you said

stan's profile picture
that you hadnít cleaned the inner tub yet, so Iíll wondering if your checking spin speed with inner tub in or out?
John says to re lube, so Iíd do what he says and Iíd try putting the tub back in temporarily, if you havenít already, to recheck spin speed and listen for noise.
I mentioned above.. the last one I did, I had to be mindful of getting inner tub set back into original position.
I didnít on my first attempt and it made a weird sound til I went back in and re positioned.
HTH


Post# 1188608 , Reply# 16   8/27/2023 at 00:27 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        

stuftrock1's profile picture
I checked spin speed with the tub both in and out. It was noticeably much slower than my Maytags. The weird noise it was making was a motor hum, which is why Iím convinced itís just spinning on slow speed. As for why it would be doing that, I have no clue.

Post# 1188627 , Reply# 17   8/27/2023 at 10:16 by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

I believe this is a 1-speed machine.† Agitation and spin should be at high speed in all cycles.† The original motor is P/N 3349643, the label should reference RPM of only 1,725.† The original P/N is apparently NLA, don't know for how long.† The substitution is a 2-speed but still should operate only at high speed being that the machine doesn't (shouldn't) have wiring for low speed.† Has it always been in your possession and usage with no possibility of the motor having been previously replaced with a 2-speed and the machine modified to run at low?


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Post# 1188635 , Reply# 18   8/27/2023 at 12:59 by BlockEight88 (Hobart, IN)        
A 1 speed DD...

blockeight88's profile picture
Is this how they coined the phrase "Shredmore"?

Post# 1188637 , Reply# 19   8/27/2023 at 13:19 by RyneR1988 (Indianapolis)        
Reply #18

ryner1988's profile picture
I think the story behind the "shredmore"moniker is that Bob/Appnut owned one of these machines years ago and it kept damaging his clothes. Frayed towels, holes in sweaters, and various other incidents of clothing wear were allegedly reported. I wasn't around on the forum then but he still speaks on it every so often. Others have had similar happen although I never have and I run my DD on high speed often. It's a mystery really why some people have the issue and others don't, but yes, constantly running everything at high speed, including items that can't really handle it, coupled with severe over-loading are practices that seem to exacerbate the shredding. But as I've said, I use high sspeed frequently and have not had clothing damage that I notice, but then again my wife and I have mostly sturdy cotton clothes so that might have something to do with it. I repeat, I don't think anyone has really figured out why some suffer this unfortunate problem and others don't.

Post# 1188638 , Reply# 20   8/27/2023 at 13:27 by BlockEight88 (Hobart, IN)        
^

blockeight88's profile picture
I've never had an issue, but at times I have used less water than I should have. I think this was mostly due to people trying to stuff everything inside, or using low water levels.

Post# 1188686 , Reply# 21   8/27/2023 at 22:08 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        
Reply 17

stuftrock1's profile picture
I bought this machine in early July 2022 from my friend's neighbor. The motor is 3349643. Since you say this is a single speed motor, I am now even more confused. It agitates just fine on a normal speed without a noticeable hum, but it isn't spinning anywhere close to 650 rpm from what I can tell. I don't know what rpm my Maytag A512 and LAT4914 spin, but I would estimate this is a good 100 rpm slower, roughly equivalent to my 4914's low speed spin.

Post# 1188698 , Reply# 22   8/27/2023 at 23:59 by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

Have you tried all the cycles ... Regular, Permanent Press, Short, and Soak/Prewash if the machine has it?† They should all agitate and spin at the same speed.

A video of the spin may be helpful.† Videos can't be uploaded directly into posts here, they must be placed at a file sharing service and linked.† Majority use YouTube (set the permissions for public viewing).

Your Maytags spin at 618 RPM for high speed.† I don't recall mention of low speed RPM.


Post# 1188729 , Reply# 23   8/28/2023 at 10:42 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        

stuftrock1's profile picture
I have only used the regular cycle. As soon as the new center post seal comes in, Iíll reassemble and test out the other cycles. Iíll try to get a video of the spin.

Post# 1188939 , Reply# 24   8/30/2023 at 21:15 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        
Quick update

stuftrock1's profile picture
So the new center post seal is supposed to get here on Friday. Had some free time so I went ahead and started cleaning up the inner tub. Managed to get the lint filter off without breaking it, so Iíll be able to reuse it. Also was finally able to get the drive block out of the tub. Thankfully there isnít much rust, but Iíll definitely still need to put some por-15 on the inside of the mounting stem in the tub. There is a lot of build up on the inside of the mounting stem and on the drive block I still need to clean out though, but itís a start!

Also cleaned up the console a bit since I hadnít done that yet.


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Post# 1189089 , Reply# 25   9/1/2023 at 14:38 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        
Good news and bad news

stuftrock1's profile picture
New center post seal came in! Bad news is it wasnít the source of the leak. Shaft seals are bad. Pictures 2 and 3 in reply 4. The center post itself is also a little rusty and has a lot of paint chips and exposed metal, so it needs to be repainted. Even worse news is the spin tube is pitted. Pretty bad. Iíd really rather not buy a new spin tube.

So hereís what I have left to do. Need to take a straw cleaner to all the holes in the inner tub and finish cleaning that up, take a wire brush and get rid of all the loose rust and buildup inside the center post of the inner tub, por-15 the underside and inside the center post of the inner tub, take a wire brush to the center post on the tripod and por-15 it, install a new lower shaft seal, install a new upper shaft seal OR buy a new spin tube, clean up the drive block or just buy a new one, pack the spin tube bearings with oil, then FINALLY I can reassemble everything and hopefully be done.

I honestly thought I could be done with everything by the end of the weekend. Boy was I wrong! I had also hoped I could sell this thing for a profit after rebuilding. Being a BOL model LST6132, I donít think thatís really gonna happen if I have to buy a new spin tube.


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Post# 1189102 , Reply# 26   9/1/2023 at 16:45 by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

Anything worn should be replaced if the aim is to get many years more use of the machine ... basket drive (which includes installed agitator shaft bearings), perhaps the agitator shaft (transmission disassembly, neutral drain kit) to mate with those new bearings.† A new tub support which includes installed spin bearings/seals is much easier than dealing with replacing the bearings/seals directly, although of course more costly.


Post# 1189110 , Reply# 27   9/1/2023 at 17:58 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        

stuftrock1's profile picture
A new spin tube and tub support would cost around $400 total. Maybe if this was a TOL set that I could sell for close to $2k (matching washer/dryer), but thatís just not worth it on a BOL set like this.

Post# 1189653 , Reply# 28   9/8/2023 at 21:24 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        
Progress!

stuftrock1's profile picture
Got the shaft seals replaced, and I never want to do that again. Put two coats of por-15 on the center post and mounting stem of the inner tub. I forgot how much I hated painting with por-15 because of how the lid fuses shut to the can once I open it for the first time. Almost have to destroy the can just to open it up again. Also got a new center post seal and drive block.

Now hereís the fun part. Reassembly!

I washed the inner tub off again so Iíll put the rest back together and test it out tomorrow once it dries.


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Post# 1189670 , Reply# 29   9/9/2023 at 09:43 by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Rebuilding a direct, drive washer for resale

combo52's profile picture
Hi Sean, nice job this machine should run for a long time yet.

Weíve rebuilt hundreds if not thousands of machines over the years, itís an interesting process you have to do it in a way that you can make some money on it and you also want the product to last a long time.

Our goal is to have rebuilt machines leave the shop that will last a minimum of 10 years under average conditions and many have lasted more than 20, all while spending as little as possible on the rebuilding process, we can sometimes put out machines with no cost outlay at all other than our time for cleaning and repairs I try to spend less than $50 and even less than 20 per average rebuilt appliance. We give a one year parts and labor in home warranty on all rebuilt appliances that we rebuild and install for customers.

You should come up and spend some time with us rebuilding stuff I can show you a lot of tricks. For example, replacing the seals on a direct drive washer should only take about 10 minutes and itís easy to do with the machine is disassembled.

This coming week Chris may be coming in from northeastern Ohio and weíre going to rebuild a belt drive 24 inch late 60s Kenmore for example for him to take back with him.

Get in touch with me if you want to learn more about economical rebuilding for resale.

John


Post# 1189692 , Reply# 30   9/9/2023 at 14:43 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        
Reply 29

stuftrock1's profile picture
Thank you very much! Iíve definitely really enjoyed rebuilding these old machines. Maytag has been my favorite to work on so far, though I have had very limited experience with this. Iíd love to learn how to work on a Whirlpool built belt drive, since thatís now the only big name design I havenít worked on yet (Iíve done a Filter Flo (to an extent), a Maytag, and now a Whirlpool built direct drive). Only problem is I havenít seen a single belt drive for sale in my area since Iíve started looking.

Iíd certainly love to take a trip up there to learn the ropes and see your collection, and I very much appreciate the offer. Iím in college right now and I donít exactly have the time or money to make a big trip like that, but weíll see. Iíll definitely reach out to you for any questions about rebuilding these washers. Thank you again!


Post# 1189693 , Reply# 31   9/9/2023 at 14:47 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        
Finished it up!

stuftrock1's profile picture
Got it completed reassembled! Really happy with how this turned out. I also went ahead and added a fabric softener dispenser.

Now just gotta run water through it. Fingers crossed I put the new shaft seals on correctlyÖ


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Post# 1189718 , Reply# 32   9/9/2023 at 22:16 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Good job Sean!

stan's profile picture
Looks great
I got lost here on the problem with spin speed.. how did you resolve ?


Post# 1189721 , Reply# 33   9/9/2023 at 22:42 by qsd-dan (West)        

qsd-dan's profile picture

all while spending as little as possible on the rebuilding process

This is why I'll NEVER purchase a "rebuilt" or "refurbished" appliance. It's all about turning the biggest profit in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of effort and money. Give me a machine from the scrap pile and I'll tear that bitch down myself and restore it, the right way!

Post# 1189724 , Reply# 34   9/10/2023 at 00:05 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        
Öhow did you resolve the spin speed?

stuftrock1's profile picture
I was using an extension cord to test it then. I donít know if thatíll actually cause it since I know some washers like Maytags really donít like extension cords. I also put fresh turbine oil in the spin bearings. Either of those things could have fixed it.

Heck, maybe Iím just really good at putting things back together better than they were before lol. My A512 had a bad tub break that indexed like crazy. I fully disassembled the machine and rebuilt it, and it worked perfectly when I got it back together. Tub was nice and firm with zero indexing. I never touched the brake assembly, or the transmission for that matter.


Post# 1189735 , Reply# 35   9/10/2023 at 09:48 by CircleW (NE Cincinnati OH area)        
Extension Cords

They aren't meant to take the place of permanent wiring, of course. However, if they are sized properly, they will not be a problem. Issues arise when a cord of incorrect wire gauge for the length is used, resulting in excessive voltage drop. A quality industrial grade cord of #12 or #10 wire should be sufficient. The cord should be no longer than necessary, and should be fully uncoiled when in use. Also, the plugs and connectors must be in good condition, as must be the receptacle. If a plug doesn't fit securely, the receptacle or cord connector needs to be replaced with a high quality commercial grade device. A decent receptacle can be purchased for around $4.00 each.

Post# 1189736 , Reply# 36   9/10/2023 at 10:00 by BlockEight88 (Hobart, IN)        
Reply #33

blockeight88's profile picture
Amen. My thoughts exactly which is why I have nearly stripped down 3 machines now and rebuilt from the bottom up.

Post# 1189747 , Reply# 37   9/10/2023 at 13:05 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        
Replies 33 and 36

stuftrock1's profile picture
I actually completely agree with yíall. If I ever buy a rebuilt/refurbished washer, Iím still tearing it down myself to make sure he or she did a good job.

As for me and the machines I rebuild and sell, I take pride in my work. I replace every part that is broken or badly worn out, and for raw labor like cleaning and disassembling, I do everything that needs to be done. I rebuild every machine as if it was going to someone in my family. I sign my name on every machine I rebuild, and I donít put my name on things that I half ass. I really hate how a lot of people nowadays, especially in my generation, just donít take pride in their work. They want to get a job done as quickly as possible with the least amount of effort.

This is why I thoroughly document all my rebuilds and extensively test each machine before selling. I want to make sure anyone who buys from me can see everything that I did. The only things I didnít do to this washer that I probably shouldíve was repaint the cabinet, top panel, and lid, and replace the spin tube assembly. I didnít repaint because I couldnít find an exact match of this almond color, and I didnít replace the spin tube because the old one is still in decent shape and a replacement is too expensive, especially to replace something still in decent shape. The pitting youíll see on the spin tube in reply 25 picture 4 are just surface marks. They have no depth to them. Iím still thoroughly testing out the machine myself to make sure it doesnít have any problems, and I will replace it if it does.


Post# 1189756 , Reply# 38   9/10/2023 at 15:45 by BlockEight88 (Hobart, IN)        
Rebuilding DD's...

blockeight88's profile picture
I have had 3 different used appliance owners tell me it's not worth their time to clean the machines internally. The same ones also said that when it "spin drains" this is normal and doesn't have any effect on the machine. Now I just laugh...

Post# 1189758 , Reply# 39   9/10/2023 at 15:58 by stuftrock1 (Kentucky)        

stuftrock1's profile picture
After seeing how disgusting this machine was inside when I first got it, ainít no way I would have used it to clean my own clothes without cleaning it first. Cheap detergent plus cold washes and neutral drain really does a number on the cleanliness of the machine. This whole process has caused me to really appreciate a spin drain a lot more.

Any appliance refurbisher who says itís not worth their time to clean it internally is someone you should never buy from.


Post# 1189767 , Reply# 40   9/10/2023 at 18:34 by BlockEight88 (Hobart, IN)        
Neutral Drain...

blockeight88's profile picture
I never thought that neutral drain contributes to the gunk inside machines. Those businesses I was referring to did not get my business.

On behalf of the future owner of this machine, I thank you for taking your time to restore it.


Post# 1189772 , Reply# 41   9/10/2023 at 20:09 by RyneR1988 (Indianapolis)        
Reply #40

ryner1988's profile picture
The spin drain v. neutral drain issue has been debated on this board for years and years. Spin drain fans claim that neutral drain leaves a scum around the top of the tub and agitator because there's no spinning action to carry sediment away with the water. People who back the neutral drain system argue that it's superior for removal of lint. The need for a good lint removal system is more prevalent when a dryer is rarely used, which is why washers like those from Speed Queen neutral drain in countries such as Australia where they mostly hang-dry their laundry.

Personally I think it comes down to good washing habits with quality detergent rather than the way the washer drains, but that's just me.

Ryne


Post# 1189784 , Reply# 42   9/10/2023 at 22:58 by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

Reply 41- Regardless of detergent, soil level or water quality I've noticed neutral draining always leaves residue lines behind on the tub and agitator. A washer ought to clean itself. The biggest lint producing washer I ever used was a model T GE which was a neutral drain machine. All the extra lint may have been from the rough wash action, but the neutral drain certainly did not appear to help.  



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