Thread Number: 94410
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
spray only rinse/Speed Queen |
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Post# 1190745 , Reply# 1   9/27/2023 at 11:02 (213 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Post# 1190790 , Reply# 2   9/28/2023 at 10:23 (212 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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I'd stay away from the spray rinse. You'd be better off doing a real deep rinse. It will conserve many times over because you will get all the soap rinsed out, period. Besides, I use fabric softener anyway. |
Post# 1190800 , Reply# 3   9/28/2023 at 14:45 (212 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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I'm not going to lie, this is something I think about. Having 3 or more 30 second spray rinses with 2 minutes of spin in between is a rather elegant and efficient way of rinsing. In theory the cycle can also be shortened in that the fill times also count as rinse time.
WP resource saver re-circulates the water and they have shown that moving water through the clothes during spin is as effective as deep rinsing. A spray rinse in theory is not far off.
I sometimes wonder how WP DD, WP BD and Maytag DC would have worked if they implemented a spray rinse system entirely. Something like below where the deep rinse is replaced with two or more spray rinses with spins in between. Cool down replaced by a continuous spray that starts upon pressure switch reset. I wish I could test this concept in a lab.
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Post# 1190805 , Reply# 4   9/28/2023 at 16:01 (212 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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I wish I could test washers and dryers in a lab too, especially with everyday loads of sturdy cottons. |
Post# 1190808 , Reply# 5   9/28/2023 at 16:39 (212 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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What is interesting is that you can take almost any washer cycle sequence or tech sheet, a spray rinse system can be implemented without any changes to the total cycle time or internal wiring. If one simply keeps the tub spinning during the rinse and second pause part of the cycle you can open the cold valve about 4 or 5 times with enough spin time in between to extract all the rinse water.
For example, Normal cycle here gives 4 30 second spray rinses with 2 minutes spin between each for heavy fabric, and Permanent Press gives 4 30 second sprays with 1 minute in between each for casual fabric. A 3 minute cool down spray period is given at start of spin. Max tub evacuation time at full water level is assumed to 110 seconds. Motor reverse, drop on, drop off, bypass and fill contacts have been modified to reflect this new cycle sequence.
Proposed:
Original:
This post was last edited 09/28/2023 at 17:01 |
Post# 1190809 , Reply# 6   9/28/2023 at 16:49 (212 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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@GELaundry4Ever: We'd be the best wet lab techs, we know what great cleaning results look like.
An interesting test would be to have one set of washer use a spray rinse system another set using deep rinse with all identical fabrics and wet ballasts in each washer. Then test each cloth and compare the residual detergent for each set in a new rinse bath. Analysis of water extraction time, carry over, and carry away in determining the optimal number of rinses, time allowed for each rinse and interm spin. Optimal flume design would be another goal.
Data is wonderful, not enough of it seems to be driving appliance engineering.
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Post# 1190859 , Reply# 7   9/29/2023 at 12:28 (211 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)   |   | |
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Post# 1190867 , Reply# 8   9/29/2023 at 13:35 (211 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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The normal Eco cycle fills entirely with cold water, begins agitating, then sprays hot water for 24 seconds ("eco spray") in the last wash increment. All spray rinses are cold. A second pressure switch was added to the machine in the event the timer gets stuck on this SIS increment and overfills the washer.
Tech sheet can be found here:
https://imgur.com/a/PQYpNQz
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Post# 1190967 , Reply# 9   9/30/2023 at 15:09 (210 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)   |   | |
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Post# 1191008 , Reply# 10   10/1/2023 at 03:07 (210 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Yup. Good way to save on water especially for more casual fabrics or curtains.
Interestingly I just found out that Maytag did a spray rinse PP cooldown on their commercial machines- a 1 minute spray after 1 minute of spin draining. 30 second spin after the spray. With some tweaking such a cool down would fit a home-style washer perfectly.
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Post# 1191736 , Reply# 13   10/11/2023 at 04:32 (199 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Yesterday I ran an extra small kitchen towel load with a single tide pod. Lots of suds. I reset the machine to the spray rinse increment twice giving about a 1 minute per spray before letting the timer advance into a deep rinse. In the deep rinse the water had no suds and was clear. I'm starting to think that spray rinse could have been a viable alternative for all top load washers starting in 2009 vs playing around with low water levels, auto fills, partial deep fills and grey water rinses. A spray rinse adds no complexity whatsoever vs what manufacturers were doing around that time. I'd go as far as saying Whirlpool would not even been required to change their fill flume. Or any washer maker for that matter. |
Post# 1191746 , Reply# 14   10/11/2023 at 08:27 (199 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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I used the Normal/Eco cycle on my 2017 9-Series top loader for small-to-medium sized loads and the spray rinse was adequate under those conditions. I tried using it on full capacity loads and I didn't think the water spray was aimed to hit the whole load when it was plastered against the tub top to bottom.
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Post# 1191752 , Reply# 15   10/11/2023 at 11:53 (199 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Small vs medium vs large loads would be a good idea to test.
I timed the deep rinse fill on my Speed Queen at 4:45 (4 minutes 45 seconds) on a medium load but water level set to max. I paused the timer at 2:00 minutes of filling and the tub was less than half full.
After I set the timer manually to the spray rinse increment (which ends up giving a spray lasting about 2 minutes 14 seconds instead of 30 seconds) the washer spun for for 1 minute 38 seconds before stopping for the deep rinse. At this time the periods/amount of water being ejected from the drain hose had significantly declined. I would say 2 minutes between each spray is enough to get the clothes reasonably dry.
@Frigilux: The spray not hitting all the clothes is ok in theory. The spray is to saturate the clothes with water and then have the spin extract the saturated water. The water would migrate up and down through the un-sprayed clothing before finding its way out the inner tub holes. Spraying the clothes just to the point of terminal saturation, extracting them dry, then repeating the cycle several times maximizes water. A continuous spray would bounce some water off the clothes once terminal saturation is reached instead of being absorbed into the fabric then pulled out.
4 30 second spray rinses with 2 minutes of spin in between would in my opinion work best for a large load. An extra rinse switch could add one or two extra sprays.
Cycles could also be made to take fabric density and load quantity into account. Delicates would get 4 15 second sprays with 1 minute interm spins, casuals 3 30 second sprays with 1 min 30 second interm spin, normal 4 30s sprays with 2 min 30 second interm spin, heavy duty 4 45 second sprays with 4 minute interm spins, ect. Spray to absorb- stop at terminal saturation-extract to dry % of weight, repeat a number of times determined by amount of detergent added in the wash.
In theory flow sensors in the drain port, fill flume and current measured in relation to load could be used to control an internal logic algorithm for determining the precise amount of water needed for a total spray rinse system.
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