which of these 3 DWs would be the best to use

Exactly Shannon. All options will give one clean dishes, KA, ISE, and Maytag RR. As I mentioned above the Maytag RR in not raucous. One can stand right next to it, while it is running, and easily hold a conversation. But, you definitely know it's running. Personally, I like the sound. It's the sound of power. It's a background sound and is not annoying. I sm not sure why many today think a dishwasher has to be near silent, especially when the cost of that quietness comes at the cost of performance. So many of today's machines have underpowered motors, which indeed wash quietly, as there is so little water pressure. However, two and even three hour wash times are the price one pays to get the dishes clean. Something that could be done with equal, or even better results, by vintage machines often in approximately 45 minutes.

My family's Modern Maid, which we got in the summer of '68 was quite a bit louder than the Maytag RR. Yet, it was noticeably loud, but not obtrusively loud. My mom grew up on a farm, without electricity. For her to get to the point in life where she now had a machine to do her dishes was phenomenal. My dad was talking about the noise of the machine shortly after we got it. My mom replied it didn't bother her and she said she was rather proud for guests to hear it and know she had a dishwasher.

As far as the loading of a Maytag RR, sometimes people have problems with a paradigm shift. Even back eighty/ninety years ago, most dishwasher had plates on the bottom rack and glasses on top, if they were an impeller machine, which most were. They had to be racked this way because water had to flow past the plates to get to the top rack. It was a necessity racking be done that way or you wouldn't get the top rack glassware and cups washed.

So a convention developed. Dishwashers had to have plates on the bottom and glassware on top. Industry created this paradigm in us. Later when pumps were utilized and wash tubes, and secondary wash arms came along, that type of loading arrangement was no longer necessary. But, by this time this is what we became used to and expect in a dishwasher.

In the late sixties, realizing that this type of loading was no longer a technical necessity, Maytag developed a method to allow more dishware to be held in a machine
and give a superior wash, in many ways. It entailed putting glassware on the lower rack and flatware and plates on the upper. This was in the very late sixties. After roughly fifty years of industry creating the paradigm in people's mind that plates have to go on the bottom rack and glasses on top.

Some humans, in fact most humans, do not have the intellect to override the disquieting effect of change of viewpoint. To deal with change requires a paradigm switch in their thinking. Once humans get a particular mindset, it tends to be set in stone, whether it be the way we do things or the way we look at things. Even when there is a superior way. Look at the current qwerty typewriter/computer keyboard. Many more efficient and fast keyboard patterns have been developed but they go unused because people are reluctant to give up what they are comfortable with, even when a superior option exists.

For a person who has had a dishwasher for many years, to see a Maytag reverse rack for the first time, they might feel uncomfortable putting plates in the top rack. There might have even been some people, who saw a RR in the showroom, and thought "that's strange." and not purchased the Reverse Rack. It didn't matter there were superiorities in the system. They just just didn't have the intellect to deal with a paradigm shift, and stuck with what they were accustomed to just because they didn,'t want to deal with something new.

Conversely, someone who never had a dishwasher before, would not have a predetermined bias. That is, they would not have a paradigm to deal with that had been set into their mind by industry. These people would be more able hear the the salesperson's presentation of information of the inherent advantages of a reverse racking system and use this information in a logical manner to make an appropriate buying decision. That is their decision would be made on facts rather than the emotion of dealing with change. Often we think what we are familiar with, and or comfortable with, is superior or should be the way things should be.

Although the conventional dishwashers were very good performers, as a rule, by the late sixties, the new Reverse Rack offered outstanding performance along with loading advantages. Not only was there a full sized wash arm below the lower rack, but a full sized wash arm ABOVE the upper rack. So, silverware, cups and plates were being washed with two water delivery systems, a wash tower from below and a full sized wash arm from above. As I mentioned earlier, the Maytag RR was the only machine that could scour the underside of pots and pans, placed in the upper rack, as well as the inside of the pots/pans.

In the very first year of it's introduction, the Maytag Reverse rock hit number one, in performance, in Consumer Reports magazine. The only thing they downrated the portable RR machine for, was that opening the lid too quickly caused the full sized wash arm, mounted on the underside of the lid, for potentially giving the user a shower of water on their face and upper body.

Maytag's RR Design lasted from the 1969 model year through the 1991 model year. Twenty two years. There were enough first time dishwasher buyers and enough people of intellect, who were willing to make the paradigm shift that kept these premium priced machines popular.

However, in 1992 Maytag conventionalized their machine to cut production costs. They went to a plastic/polymer interior, like virtually everyone else had at this time, and to a conventional racking system, also like everyone else had, at the time. Maybe they thought they could get more sales from the people who did not have the mental ability to deal with paradigm shifts. And, they were probably right.

I think that the RR system should be applauded for being unique, easy to load, handling many dishes and offering some cleaning options, for example, the ability of scouring the bottoms of skillets and pans, that no other machine could offer. This was Maytag's first offering of a dishwasher to the public and they were brave enough to offer an unconventional design.

I've said this many times, but most of the major brands, GE, Maytag, Whirlpool, Hobart KA, all offered fine machines that gave clean dishes. Each brought something to the table, in the case of specific attributes that might be advantageous for one user and other one might bring something different to the table that another user prefers.


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Post# 1192695 10/28/2023 at 21:23 (188 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)
Checkrate/Likes I have 4 DWs in storage that may get placed into use if my Bosch DW is not repairable wondering which of these 3 vintage machines would be most recommended: -1984 maytag -1991 maytag -1986 ISE there is also new low end plastic GE from about 2015 that is avalible.

Post# 1192697 , Reply# 1 10/28/2023 at 21:27 (188 days old) by qsd-dan (West)
Checkrate/Likes 3 You'd have to include model #'s for a better idea. The '84 and '91 Maytag could both be reverse racks machines. ISE was generally a lower end KA that probably has only one final rinse cycle.

Post# 1192700 , Reply# 2 10/28/2023 at 22:04 (188 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)
Checkrate/Likes 2 *IMO* The 1984 Maytag. But it will be noisier than the Bosch you're used to if that is a consideration.

Post# 1192718 , Reply# 3 10/29/2023 at 07:20 (187 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Checkrate/Likes 2 *Best of three used dishwashers* The 86ISE would hold the most and be the most reliable, the 84 Maytag is a reverse rack dishwasher they were noisy and didn�t hold much. The 91 Maytag would be the new generation machine easier to load a pretty good performer depends on the model. But still no upper wash arm. However, condition of each of these dishwashers may make the choice for you my remarks are assuming all three machines are a new condition. John

Post# 1192724 , Reply# 4 10/29/2023 at 12:13 (187 days old) by rinso (Meridian Idaho)
Checkrate/Likes 2 Even though it only has a wash tower instead of a full wash arm, one of my best-performing dishwashers was a 90's Maytag, with the normal layout rack. Early ones suffered from an incontinent power module, which was usually replaced without charge back then. It had/has a very powerful air circulator for the drying cycle.

Post# 1192726 , Reply# 5 10/29/2023 at 13:03 (187 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)
Checkrate/Likes I think the ISE could still be the equivalent of a series 20 KA, and if so, it would offer an additional rinse. I can't say off hand when the single rinse 21 series went into production though. There's a gray area regarding ISE badging after Whirlpool bought KitchenAid but IIRC some ISE machines were produced toward the end of the 20 series run. I agree that despite the noise level and ho-hum, flimsy looks, the '91 Maytag would be a good performer, but it would be my second choice over a 20 series KA clone.

Post# 1192728 , Reply# 6 10/29/2023 at 13:24 (187 days old) by thatwasherguy (Kentucky)
Checkrate/Likes 1 *Personally...* I�d probably go for the �84 Maytag or the ISE. However, any of those machines sound like they would be fantastic to use. Thatwasherguy.

Post# 1192732 , Reply# 7 10/29/2023 at 16:06 (187 days old) by qsd-dan (West)
Checkrate/Likes 2 *The 91 Maytag would be the new generation* The 04 series direct drive reverse rack platform was still being produced in 1991, John.

Post# 1192739 , Reply# 8 10/29/2023 at 17:55 (187 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Checkrate/Likes *1991 Maytag dishwashers* Indeed, you are correct I was thinking that was the year they ditched the silly reverse rack, but they actually went to the direct drive pump and continued the reverse rack for another year or two, even though it was a greatly improved pump assembly compared to the noisy belt, driven and less reliable system They used prior to this. It was still just a wash tube dishwasher. It was not a great machine for random loading. John

Post# 1192750 , Reply# 9 10/29/2023 at 20:59 (187 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)
Checkrate/Likes Yeah, now that I think of it, my parents' Maytag Jet Clean DW could have been a '92. It definitely wasn't a reverse rack.

Post# 1192751 , Reply# 10 10/29/2023 at 21:10 (187 days old) by reactor (Oak Ridge, Tennessee-- )
Checkrate/Likes 10 *Maytag Reverse-Rack* The mid-80's and the 1991 reverse racks are the easiest to load and hold more dishes that the ISE/KA. All three are good performers when it comes to cleaning. Several years the Maytag Reverse Racks came in #1 in consumer reports, and in other years the KA's were number one. KA, Maytag, GE and Whirlpool have all rotated in and out of the number one slot or number one group in Consumer reports. Basically all clean well. The advantage to the Reverse Rack is the capacity and they also have a full sized wash arm over the top rack. If you have an electric skillet, you know how grease splatters can run down over the sides and build up a residue on the bottom. In the Reverse Rack the full sized wash arm will scour the bottoms of your skillets and keep that crud from collecting and baking on there and will keep your roasters and pots and pans clean on the underside as well. The reverse rack seems magical in the amount of dishes it holds. Maytag's advertising claimed they "held more dishes than any other brand," and "No dishwasher cleans dishes better." From having multiple reverse rack units, I can tell you it's true. The upper rack has bowl dividers which hold bowls firmly and prevent them from toppling over. Bowls that are too deep for conventional dishwasher racks tines to hold in a vertical position, fit in the reverse rack with zero problems. The racking is extremely intuitive, unlike many other dishwashers. You just look at it and you can see where bowls go, where saucers go and where plates go. No guesswork. It is very adept to random loading and is a particularly good machine for those who just "throw their dishes in" without paying too much attention to ordered arrangement. Due to the very fine particle filtration, and self cleaning (backwashing) filter, the Maytag's can use needle sized holes in the wash arms without them clogging. Because of Bernoulli's Principle, the smaller jets cause an increase in water velocity, resulting in greater scrubbing power. There are also more jets per unit area of the wash arm to give a greater water delivery rate and better coverage. Many on this site claim the Maytag Reverse Jets are the best dishwashers ever made. I don't make such global generalizations, but they are a very, very fine machine. If quietness is a major consideration, the Maytags have the noise of power, which I like. They are not raucous, but you will definitely know when they are operating. The loudest portion of the cycle is the drain. The 1991 model Maytag has a direct drive motor, located directly beneath the pump. The mid-eighties model has the belt drive. I have had both, and they both work well. I tend to favor the belt drive, personally. On the rare chance the pump would ever develop a leak, the motor will be unaffected as it is offset from the pump. Both are wonderful machines. Unlike many on this site, I am not a huge fan of the KA/ISE. My parents had one and I had one. Mine sometimes did not clean well in the corners, on the lower rack. Other than that, it had good scrub-ability, but the tub is noticeably smaller than other modern dishwasher tubs. Still, it is a very good performer. We have one member on this site, as you may have discovered, who has a extreme bias on dishwashers, to the point of literally being a near neurosis. He is jealous of the Maytag Reverse-Rack as it is a superior machine, in many ways, to his favorite. When people on this site give accolades to the Reverse rack. he cannot take it. So You have to understand that when he states falsifications and negative exaggerations about the Reverse Rack, and discount some of his comments. That is not why we are here on this site. We are to share experiences and aid each other, not force our opinions on others and offer lies to support our own opinions. That is disrespectful to the site and to our members. Doing proper research, you asked opinions of us on this site. I would immediately go for the belt-drive mid-eighties Maytag. That is my personal opinion based on having all three units you are in consideration of, and using all three for daily drivers. The reality is, all three machines that you mentioned are fine and each bring something different to the table. It's just a matter of what specifics are important to you. All three will give you very clean dishes, which is the bottom line. I wish you well in your decision, please keep us informed! This post was last edited 10/29/2023 at 23:40

Post# 1192757 , Reply# 11 10/29/2023 at 23:21 (187 days old) by qsd-dan (West)
Checkrate/Likes 5 First dishwasher my family owned was a KDS-20 that came with the house (along with a KA disposer of the same age). After that, it was a RR direct drive Maytag followed by a KDS-19 and a KDS-18. I got a minty, low use TOL late 90's Kenmore for free and out of curiosity, wanted to see what the hoopla of the Ultra Wash was all about. Moved into a different house that has, I believe, the Point Voyager design KA. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Also, there's a big difference in performance between low end and high end models of the same design, especially back in the day mainly due to the options for heating the water and/or maintaining heat which resulted in longer wash cycles....providing better washing results. The direct drive Maytag RR is definitely quieter than the non reversible motor KA's. I have never experienced a belt drive RR in person and it may be as noisy as a non reversing motor KA but I kinda doubt it. The KA used a 1/2 HP motor and those are just noisier by design than Maytags 1/3 HP motor and shook the subfloor in my kitchen, which the RR never did. I thought the UW was really quiet until I experience the PV design. Noise from a dishwasher never bothered me though, so I never cared either way. I actually enjoy listening to the KA's and RR's go through their cycles. It's a very unique experience, especially today considering how quiet and boring modern dishwashers are. The Maytag RR has much better filtration than the non reversible KA's (minus the 18 that I modified) but the reversible KA's gave them a run for their money. The KA's overall were more powerful and blast food off better than the Maytag RR but the additional jets in the RR provided better coverage....if that makes any sense. The full size arm in the RR's gave the best results cleaning the tops of the upper rack dishes better than any dishwasher I have ever experienced. The 18 does a better job than a the 19 or 20 due to the upper constant rinse arm on the ceiling. The UW and PV are all about the same performance out of the constant rinse arm but the UW filters much better than the PV. Due to KA's TOL tilting upper rack design, I could fit bigger items in the 18/19/20 than the RR, UW, and PV. Without the tilting racks, the RR gets the nod. The UW and PV are about the same. The small jets in the RR, particularly in the upper wash arm, always needed frequent cleaning. All of the arms in the 18/19/20 practically never needed attention. The UW was pretty close to the KA's but needed occasional attention of the upper wash arm. The upper wash arm in the PV is almost as bad as the RR, needing attention after almost every load. It's very annoying.... As far as reliability goes, I'd say the non reversing KA and RR machines are neck and neck. Both will run at least 20 very hard years without a single repair. The UW system is good but the control boards are a huge weakness. Perhaps the older mechanical timers are better, but I don't have first hand experience with those. Drying performance wise, I'd say the 18/19/20 and RR are about the same, very good. The 18 has a smaller blower but the 180F sani rinse would flash dry stuff really quick. I would not recommend using the element on the 18 as it will rust out the right side of the rear lower rack. The UW ran waaaay too hot and would melt plastics, even on the top rack. I never used the element after a few times. Not sure on the PV, I always turned the element off from day one but I would expect similar results of the UW due to the heating element placement. I used air only on all of my dishwashers 99 percent of the time, anyway. We have one member on this site, as you may have discovered, who has a extreme bias on dishwashers, to the point of literally being a near neurosis. He is jealous of the Maytag Reverse-Rack as it is a superior machine, in many ways, to his favorite. When people on this site give accolades to the Reverse rack. he cannot take it. So You have to understand that when he states falsifications and negative exaggerations about the Reverse Rack, and discount some of his comments. that is not why we are here on this site. We are to share experiences and aid each other, not force our opinions on others and offer lies to support our own opinions. That is disrespectful to the site and our members. It's not related to RR dishwashers, it's anything with a Maytag nameplate. Those who have been on here long enough know to ignore his opinions on Maytag appliances and at least 40 percent of his repair advice for them. It's so ridiculous that he has a long rant about it in his bio, which is kind of pathetic. Very cringy for someone his age, but, whatever....it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. This post was last edited 10/30/2023 at 00:15

Post# 1192796 , Reply# 12 10/30/2023 at 16:52 (186 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida)
Checkrate/Likes 2 I too agree that the Maytag reverse rack machines do an awesome job and hold plenty if one knows how to load it correctly. That middle nozzle always got water into pots that were loaded in the upper rack and scrubbed everything spotless. The WC302 I had did not heat the water and required the water to be at least 140F at the tap. But where I lived that was not an issue since the water heater was in the basement directly below the kitchen so there was no heat loss from the pipes. the lower rack of the Maytag RR machines are deceiving in the fact that the cut out is kinda large but it still held as much as a top rack KA machine if the era, if not more in my experience. The Maytag machine I had in the 2000's that had the normal racking held a ton of dishes as well. It was quiet and did an amazing job cleaning, plus had auto water heating and was direct drive as well. The KA machine I had did a great job but the upper rack was lacking in some ways, not to mention that gawd awful China Guard under the rack...which I took off because plates that I had would touch it...once removed the issue was gone. The KA held less than the Maytag. The one dishwasher that in my opinion that held the most was the GE built Kenmore with the Super Upper rack. My gawd that dishwasher held a ton of dishes and washed brilliantly with the MultiOrbit wash arm and filtering system. I loved the sound of the machine and the whoosh the tower would make as the arm rotated.

Post# 1193358 , Reply# 13 11/10/2023 at 21:16 by HobartHero (New York)
Checkrate/Likes 4 *Some cool options* I like quirky dishwashers but I usually try to focus on TOL models to really get a good comparison of the best options from each maker. I have both a built in and a portable RR belt driven machine, I never noticed them being very noisy at all compared to machines from that time period. They wash well but it�s just a different type of loading that takes some time getting used to. Not familiar with the Direct Dr RR machines but I�m assuming they clean about the same. As for KA built machines, I would agree that it would probably hold up the best if they are all very clean not beat up machines. But the RR in my opinion is much cooler and more fun than a Basic KA built machine. But all options are good solid machines. -Shannon

Post# 1193403 , Reply# 14 11/11/2023 at 12:49 by reactor (Oak Ridge, Tennessee-- )
Checkrate/Likes 2 *cool option reference* Exactly Shannon. All options will give one clean dishes, KA, ISE, and Maytag RR. As I mentioned above the Maytag RR in not raucous. One can stand right next to it, while it is running, and easily hold a conversation. But, you definitely know it's running. Personally, I like the sound. It's the sound of power. It's a background sound and is not annoying. I sm not sure why many today think a dishwasher has to be near silent, especially when the cost of that quietness comes at the cost of performance. So many of today's machines have underpowered motors, which indeed wash quietly, as there is so little water pressure. However, two and even three hour wash times are the price one pays to get the dishes clean. Something that could be done with equal, or even better results, by vintage machines often in approximately 45 minutes. My family's Modern Maid, which we got in the summer of '68 was quite a bit louder than the Maytag RR. Yet, it was noticeably loud, but not obtrusively loud. My mom grew up on a farm, without electricity. For her to get to the point in life where she now had a machine to do her dishes was phenomenal. My dad was talking about the noise of the machine shortly after we got it. My mom replied it didn't bother her and she said she was rather proud for guests to hear it and know she had a dishwasher. As far as the loading of a Maytag RR, sometimes people have problems with a paradigm shift. Even back eighty/ninety years ago, most dishwasher had plates on the bottom rack and glasses on top, if they were an impeller machine, which most were. They had to be racked this way because water had to flow past the plates to get to the top rack. It was a necessity racking be done that way or you wouldn't get the top rack glassware and cups washed. So a convention developed. Dishwashers had to have plates on the bottom and glassware on top. Industry created this paradigm in us. Later when pumps were utilized and wash tubes, and secondary wash arms came along, that type of loading arrangement was no longer necessary. But, by this time this is what we became used to and expect in a dishwasher. In the late sixties, realizing that this type of loading was no longer a technical necessity, Maytag developed a method to allow more dishware to be held in a machine and give a superior wash, in many ways. It entailed putting glassware on the lower rack and flatware and plates on the upper. This was in the very late sixties. After roughly fifty years of industry creating the paradigm in people's mind that plates have to go on the bottom rack and glasses on top. Some humans, in fact most humans, do not have the intellect to override the disquieting effect of change of viewpoint. To deal with change requires a paradigm switch in their thinking. Once humans get a particular mindset, it tends to be set in stone, whether it be the way we do things or the way we look at things. Even when there is a superior way. Look at the current qwerty typewriter/computer keyboard. Many more efficient and fast keyboard patterns have been developed but they go unused because people are reluctant to give up what they are comfortable with, even when a superior option exists. For a person who has had a dishwasher for many years, to see a Maytag reverse rack for the first time, they might feel uncomfortable putting plates in the top rack. There might have even been some people, who saw a RR in the showroom, and thought "that's strange." and not purchased the Reverse Rack. It didn't matter there were superiorities in the system. They just just didn't have the intellect to deal with a paradigm shift, and stuck with what they were accustomed to just because they didn,'t want to deal with something new. Conversely, someone who never had a dishwasher before, would not have a predetermined bias. That is, they would not have a paradigm to deal with that had been set into their mind by industry. These people would be more able hear the the salesperson's presentation of information of the inherent advantages of a reverse racking system and use this information in a logical manner to make an appropriate buying decision. That is their decision would be made on facts rather than the emotion of dealing with change. Often we think what we are familiar with, and or comfortable with, is superior or should be the way things should be. Although the conventional dishwashers were very good performers, as a rule, by the late sixties, the new Reverse Rack offered outstanding performance along with loading advantages. Not only was there a full sized wash arm below the lower rack, but a full sized wash arm ABOVE the upper rack. So, silverware, cups and plates were being washed with two water delivery systems, a wash tower from below and a full sized wash arm from above. As I mentioned earlier, the Maytag RR was the only machine that could scour the underside of pots and pans, placed in the upper rack, as well as the inside of the pots/pans. In the very first year of it's introduction, the Maytag Reverse rock hit number one, in performance, in Consumer Reports magazine. The only thing they downrated the portable RR machine for, was that opening the lid too quickly caused the full sized wash arm, mounted on the underside of the lid, for potentially giving the user a shower of water on their face and upper body. Maytag's RR Design lasted from the 1969 model year through the 1991 model year. Twenty two years. There were enough first time dishwasher buyers and enough people of intellect, who were willing to make the paradigm shift that kept these premium priced machines popular. However, in 1992 Maytag conventionalized their machine to cut production costs. They went to a plastic/polymer interior, like virtually everyone else had at this time, and to a conventional racking system, also like everyone else had, at the time. Maybe they thought they could get more sales from the people who did not have the mental ability to deal with paradigm shifts. And, they were probably right. I think that the RR system should be applauded for being unique, easy to load, handling many dishes and offering some cleaning options, for example, the ability of scouring the bottoms of skillets and pans, that no other machine could offer. This was Maytag's first offering of a dishwasher to the public and they were brave enough to offer an unconventional design. I've said this many times, but most of the major brands, GE, Maytag, Whirlpool, Hobart KA, all offered fine machines that gave clean dishes. Each brought something to the table, in the case of specific attributes that might be advantageous for one user and other one might bring something different to the table that another user prefers.

Post# 1193544 , Reply# 15 11/13/2023 at 13:27 by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)
Checkrate/Likes *dug out one...* the '91 MT was easiest to get,so that one is the one likely to get placed into service-almost identical to the '84 machine except DD pump and a real beauty inside :) '91 : WU204-01,ser.149554 fk '84 : WU202-3 ,ser.188680 xj Did not check model on the ISE,but it says "classic 400". If the maytag passes a backyard test,it will get brought in and installed