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Thread Number: 95648
/ Tag: Vintage Automatic Washers
Neutral Drain Replacement |
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| Post# 1202943 4/7/2024 at 10:49 by BlockEight88 (Northwest, IN) | ||
I did my first neutral drain replacement yesterday. I did not drain the original oil, as it looked pretty good. Only issue I ran into was being unable to remove the hex screw on the metal plate. So I ended up leaving that in there, but replaced all the other pieces including spin gear with the new one. I still haven't tested anything, as I am letting the seal dry 24 hours. Will I run into any issues?
The picture below is right after I popped the lid off. Thanks
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| Post# 1202947 , Reply# 1 4/7/2024 at 12:37 by BlockEight88 (Northwest, IN) | ||
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| Post# 1202948 , Reply# 2 4/7/2024 at 12:58 by ron350 (Birmingham, AL.) | ||
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Was there much wear on the plastic gear and the plastic levers? | ||
| Post# 1202949 , Reply# 3 4/7/2024 at 13:08 by BlockEight88 (Northwest, IN) | ||
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Wear | ||
Post# 1202952 , Reply# 4 4/7/2024 at 13:58 by chetlaham  (United States) |
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| Post# 1202956 , Reply# 5 4/7/2024 at 14:46 by BlockEight88 (Northwest, IN) | ||
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Clutch | ||
| Post# 1202958 , Reply# 7 4/7/2024 at 15:15 by BlockEight88 (Northwest, IN) | ||
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^
Are you Lizboz from YoutTube? I watched one of your newer videos and remember you referencing that, about the spin gear. So far mine seems good. Probably will need a good 4-6 minutes in the morning using extra slow. I'm sure if I would have changed the gear oil, it would be perfect, but that stuff is like $60 a bottle now from WP.
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| Post# 1202959 , Reply# 8 4/7/2024 at 15:41 by ron350 (Birmingham, AL.) | ||
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DDFan82 did you find an alternative 80W-90 gear oil that does not stink like rotten eggs? There is no way I could stand to have that nasty rotten egg gear oil stench in my small laundry room. | ||
| Post# 1202967 , Reply# 10 4/7/2024 at 18:35 by Maytag85 (Sean A806) | ||
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| Post# 1202970 , Reply# 11 4/7/2024 at 18:57 by BlockEight88 (Northwest, IN) | ||
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Oil smell
Before I learned how to do all this stuff, my 2002 Kenmore Elite (w/o the dispensers) had a rebuilt transmission and the gear oil stunk so bad. The best way to describe it was rotten eggs. Baffled me because I had no clue what it was.
If only that OEM whirlpool oil wasn't so expensive, I'd stock up. Btw Steven, I love your videos. I liked that 1986 DD you had which resembled the old BD control panel. I'm sure it went to a good home. | ||
| Post# 1202971 , Reply# 12 4/7/2024 at 19:04 by DDFan92 (Boise ID) | ||
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Thanks Matthew. Indeed that machine went to somebody who was putting in a new camper and his father in-law is an appliance guy so any repairs needed in the future shouldn't be an issue for them. | ||
| Post# 1202972 , Reply# 13 4/7/2024 at 21:51 by Stan (Napa CA) | ||
When I replaced my neutral drain 
I wanted to see how or why it failed.
I wasn’t able to see why until old parts where cleaned up. This thin metal hub is what failed, not anything else.
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Post# 1202979 , Reply# 14 4/7/2024 at 23:38 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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 A toothed cam is a part of that spring/ring, crucial to neutral drain function. | ||
| Post# 1203023 , Reply# 15 4/8/2024 at 17:40 by dominic20 (Souix falls) | ||
true | ||
| Post# 1203024 , Reply# 16 4/8/2024 at 17:42 by BlockEight88 (Northwest, IN) | ||
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| Post# 1203025 , Reply# 17 4/8/2024 at 17:58 by DDFan92 (Boise ID) | ||
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Not necessarily. All the parts having been replaced should help it work better. | ||
| Post# 1203028 , Reply# 18 4/8/2024 at 18:25 by BlockEight88 (Northwest, IN) | ||
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| Post# 1203076 , Reply# 19 4/9/2024 at 15:16 by maytaga806 (Howell, Michigan) | ||
Reply 4. That can be true as you get a double spin, but I highly disagree, it makes the loads go very unbalanced & it will dump your softener or sanitizer and waste it away if you use them in the dispenser since the machine will stop spinning after the drain cycle is complete and will go to clunk into the actual first spin. Additionally I don’t think anyone would want to have to run to the washer to advance the timer to rinse once it stops spinning in the drain cycle after slipping, if using softener or sanitizer. Plus, it sounds horrible when it slips and makes that very loud horrible clunk. Bends the clutch a lot overtime, regardless of which kind it is. Not healthy for the machine and it hurts it more than it does any good. The only thing it’s really good for is to keep the inner tub and back side of drum cleaner. This was the biggest flaw on these machines and I don’t blame anyone for not replacing the kit in the transmission, it’s not a simple repair at all since these machines aren’t brand new anymore and certain parts won’t want to come off with ease but they are still worth all the effort if one decided to do it.
I do have a question for the rest of you though, can you drop the transmission without removing anything inside the tub? Does the tub need to come out? Does the tub nut need to come off at least? Incase I ever need to do this I’d like to know!! Thank you. | ||
| Post# 1203078 , Reply# 20 4/9/2024 at 15:20 by BlockEight88 (Northwest, IN) | ||
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Reply 19
I didn’t see his post about the benefits of not replacing the neutral drain. I do have to agree with you for the points you listed. Also every single time it slips in a spin it’s a high spin which could be more rough on clothes especially if you said it to delicate and low spin.
I believe the only thing you need to do is remove the agitator and bolt the clip retainer and washer the transmission shaft. After that you should be able to easily drop the transmission. | ||
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Post# 1203086 , Reply# 21 4/9/2024 at 18:16 by chetlaham (United States) |
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With the proper water level clothes will never become unbalanced. All DDs whether going right into spin after wash or after neutral draining will make a loud clunk when engaging into spin. Sometimes the clunk happens as the motor coasts down during the 4 second motor pause between drain moving into spin, sometimes as soon as the motor starts back up for the spin. The clunk happens regardless and should not bend the clutch in any way.
Spin drain keeps the machine clean, not grime rings around the tubs or agi. | ||
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Post# 1203097 , Reply# 22 4/9/2024 at 21:26 by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Advantages of neutral drain
This really doesn’t need to be gone over again and it’s obvious chat that you’re not an engineer or you could understand this type of things.
The most successful top loading washers ever built in the United States were all neutral drain, every top loading washer built in the world today is neutral drain with the exception of the traditional Speed Queen TC five. And Speed Queen builds all their traditional washers with neutral drain when they’re sold in other countries where people don’t use clothes dryers as much as we do in the US Outer tubs and wash baskets get just as dirty with spin drain maybe even worse as it tends to spin the scum up to the underside of the tub cover. | ||
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Post# 1203114 , Reply# 23 4/10/2024 at 03:14 by chetlaham (United States) |
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You miss the point. I don't have to be anybody, of any substance, or require any brains, to have life experience. Every neutral drain top load washer I've used formed thick scum rings around the agitator and inner tub despite hot water and detergent, left behind more lint and grit, and left the clothes all clumped up and wrinkled at the bottom instead of spread out across the wash tub. The scum rings alone are enough for me- a washer should not have to be cleaned.
Yes Whirlpool BDs and DDs were the most sold washers in history due to their aggressive, thorough agitation but that doesn't change the fact their neutral drains made itself known with time in the most unappealing way.
After using my Speed Queen for 11 years there is zero ring to be seen around the agitator or inner tub and the softener holes are relatively clean. A small bit of yuck where the vanes emerge, absolutely that would be my fault for being lazy, but it pales in comparison to what my DD and GE agitator became in a few short years. | ||
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Post# 1203135 , Reply# 24 4/10/2024 at 10:47 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Chet, direct-drive was originally designed as spin-drain as I'm sure you're aware. What is your explanation on why Whirlpool redesigned them to neutral drain? Similar consideration for the classic belt-drive design with the unique wiggy-waggy shift mechanism to provide neutral drain instead of a simpler spin-drain. It was good enough for Sears to choose Whirlpool as their primary automatic topload washer source for ... how many years? Consider also that Norge eventually added a solenoid mechanism tied to pressure switch reset for a partial neutral drain. | ||
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Post# 1203159 , Reply# 25 4/10/2024 at 17:01 by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia) |
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Glenn, so did Hoover, the first Hoover TL's had a partial neutral drain. They then went to spin drain for one model before moving to an electric pump and neutral drains again. | ||
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Post# 1203161 , Reply# 26 4/10/2024 at 17:16 by chetlaham (United States) |
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A home appliance center repair tech in the early 2000s told me Whirlpool went to neutral drain to extend the life of their clutches and I've always believed that.
I have never been able to find official engineering literature as to why Whirlpool used neutral drain, briefly went to spin drain, then switched back. I do know I've seen sales literature by Whirlpool and Kenmore stating the advantages of neutral drain, only to see Maytag sales literature claiming the exact same benefits of spin drain. A polar contradiction.
From personal experience spin-drain wins hands down. I will never own a neutral drain washer again if I can help it.
To be fair I rarely wash beach sand out of clothes. It is possible sand washes out better in a neutral drain washer. | ||
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Post# 1203174 , Reply# 27 4/10/2024 at 18:37 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Granny had a 1984 WP spin-drain model for 15 years, when I passed my KA set to her upon getting my first F&P pair in 1999. It handled her laundry and mine from 1985 to 1991. No clutch trouble or any other repairs for the duration. Someone up the road bought the WP. If clutch wear presented as a problem, doesn't it seem more cost-effective to issue a beefed-up clutch into factory production and as a replacement part when service is needed vs. the expense of revising the transmission and timers for neutral drain? And the need to open the transmission for service when neutral drain parts fail vs. the simpler procedure of replacing the clutch band? | ||
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Post# 1203175 , Reply# 28 4/10/2024 at 18:55 by chetlaham (United States) |
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I believe you. I don't know how the tech reached the conclusion he did or who told him that.
In theory it would be easier to just beef up the clutch, unless Whirlpool did the math comparing the two options, was under liability, or found other advantages in a neutral drain. One possibility is when taking BOL machines without a water level selector under consideration unbalances would have been eliminated by going to a neutral drain. A new clutch would have solved the durability concern but not been able to work in BOL platforms.
ITs a guess, I wish I could have been the fly on the wall during those meetings in the 80s. | ||
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