Thread Number: 73115  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
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Post# 965825   11/3/2017 at 16:16 by johnrk (Houston)        

I'm still looking for a decent dishwasher, after getting burned by a $1K KA (not Hobart, of course) and a Frigidaire that just disintegrated.

My local appliance dealer is working on me to get one of those Fisher & Paykel double-drawer dishwashers.

Does anyone on here have any experience or opinion on these? I don't do tons of dishes, living alone, and the idea of using just one drawer is rather attractive for smaller loads.

Thanks for your input.

Post# 965837 , Reply# 1   11/3/2017 at 17:32 by RevvinKevin (Between Mickey Mouse & the Queen Mary (So. Cal.)        

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While I don't have one, I know people who do and they seem to be happy with them. Though one friend after living with it a while, wonders if it's really much more than a novelty.

It's 2 dishwashers in one box, so 2 connections each for water supply, drains and power.

I suppose it's nice to have the freedom of being able to run two loads independently, but as you live alone, not so much. Being two drawers, there are limits on the size of things you can put in to wash. Also not easy to do dishes, silver, glasses and pots / pans in the same load, unless there are only a couple of each.

As you live alone, what about a single dish-drawer, as the double drawers are still pricey?

Being it's just for one, a regular size DW of course works too, just run it less frequently.

My 2 cents.

This post was last edited 11/03/2017 at 17:16
Post# 965839 , Reply# 2   11/3/2017 at 18:08 by johnrk (Houston)        

My dilemma is trying to find a dishwasher equal to the Hobart KA's that I had in 3 prior homes. The brand that stands out in the CR reliability surveys is Bosch. Unfortunately, I'd have to buy it at Lowe's, and ours doesn't even stock them any more, I'd have to order it.

My local dealer handles 3 brands basically: Whirlpool/KA, Electrolux/Frigidaire Gallery, and F&P. I swore after that awful and awfully expensive KA that I wouldn't have another of those. The Frigidaire I have now that has died could be repaired but I want a new one anyway. The door is so flimsy on this one that I can bend it in amazing ways.

I actually live just outside Houston. If I go into Houston and look at other brands, the delivery cost is hideous. So I'm still deliberating.

Post# 965842 , Reply# 3   11/3/2017 at 18:13 by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

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Hobart-made KAs are an entirely different platform.

Double-drawer units:
- One electric cord.
- One water inlet connection (dual valve inside the machine).
- Two drain hoses connect to one standard dishwasher plumbing drain port via an included Y-adapter.

The tall-tub models have a deeper drawer.

There are 36" wide single-drawer models now (two spray arms, double-row of plate tines), which of course requires appropriate cabinetry modification/space.

Each drawer generally is considered to hold ~60% of a standard dishwasher, variable per the specific items involved. One learns loading tricks, as happens with any dishwasher. Large items such as cookie sheets, platters, trays, some cookware may not fit or may fit only one piece.

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Post# 965846 , Reply# 4   11/3/2017 at 18:26 by Revvinkevin (Between Mickey Mouse & the Queen Mary (So. Cal.)        

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Thank you Glenn, I stand corrected re; the connections and how much you can stuff in a F&P dish drawer!  cool


And yes, the Hobart built KA is a completely different animal.  I'll go out on a limb and say there is nothing like it available today.

Post# 965852 , Reply# 5   11/3/2017 at 19:23 by appnut (TX)        

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Hmm, I recognize that kitchen and dish drawer--been there.  It's really Glenn's.  lol. 

Post# 965856 , Reply# 6   11/3/2017 at 20:06 by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

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Also, there is no food grinder. The stainless steel plate is self-flushing via a jet on bottom of the arm (sweeps debris toward the drain filter). The drain protector/filter should be checked occasionally depending on the user's scraping habits. The spray arm and plate (and the pump rotor) can be removed to check for residual debris that may collect beneath it (I do that 2, maybe 3 times per year, rarely is much there).

Post# 965873 , Reply# 7   11/3/2017 at 21:18 by henene4 (Germany)        
Hobart build KA

Barely, you'd have to go semi-professional. Miele that would be:
Slots into a normal DW space, and has recirc rates of up to 50gal\min. Minimum cycle time 57min (the 240V version is much faster). Tested for 7500h of operation, so a good 5000 cycles probably.
Only drawback: Expensive as is (north of 2000$) and even more expensive due to the horrendus rates the Miele Professional Service charges (up to 300$ just for a visit, easily 1000$ for an actual fix).

A fellow member here who sadly went inactive has a WP build then TOL DW and was extremly happy with its cleaning ability. You can read about that in Thread #64218 in the Deluxe archive, especially reply #26 onwards.
Here's a link:
The current equivalent for that DW should be the WDT750 and can be had for about 600$ in white, 700$ in stainless steal.
The new TOL model with third rack is 800$.
Thing with all WP cooperation DW no matter which actual brand is to not look for the outside of the machine, but for the wash and filter system used. Some are awesome and reasonably quick, some slow and horrible. They can be identified via the filter and wash arm used. Some arms are motor driven, some geared, some just plain. Some have filters you need to clean more often, some less, some no filters at all.
Further, drying: There are just heat, fan and fan and heat options. One user who has the fan+heat combo reports of almost absolutley dry cup bottoms.

Bosches are really nice. Really good sensors, really good cycles.
Same goes with MOL Mieles.
Both now have cycles equivalent to the 1 hour wash by Whirlpool.
With both however service can be tricky (more extremly so with Miele) and expensive, and as neither are cheap machines, you can firly well guess how expensive service is (Miele service calls regulary clock in at 600$).
Further, depending on dishware and typicl loads, the racks can apparently be almost unusable for some american households, though, all I can say about loadng these is as long as there is literally any path for water to come to a surface, no matter how big or small or which angle it is at, that surface will be clean 99% of times. Only exception is burnt in stuff, that needs a little prescrub and a direct spray o water.
To put Mieles cleaning ablity to perspective:

Miele has a fan assisted condensation drying system an AutoOpen, Bosch is much cheaper.
With both one advise: Don't buy below middle of the line.
Bosch uses a 2 sector tub (top stainless steal with a bottom sump area made of plastic glued together at about the height of the lower rack wheels) on the cheap machines which is prone to leaking after a few years and that issue can only be fixed by an entire new tub assembly whitch is a far beyond economical repair.
Mieles entry level (G4xxx) machines use a standard one speed motor. On machines from early this decade or late last decade there have been cases where the pump would seize up and thus quit working or cases where the water seals around the pump shaft gave in and floded the motor. If that is still the case is unknown as these faults usually happen after 4-8 years.
The former can be prevented by running the DW pretty frequently or by using a special tool Miele offers which allows you to turn the impeller a few turns without major disassembly by inserting it through the sump opening. That saved some from having to replace their motor, but more often then not, a new motor was needed sooner or later.
If water gets into the pump, you need a new pump no matter what.
Depending on where the next service person is located, a motor replacement can be 600$, plus minus a couple hundred.
The G6xxx series uses a varible speed motor which basicly never fails.

The dishdrawer is a novel concept that can work really well for some.
F&P produce fairly reliable an fairly simple products with proofen technologys. A DishDrawer only has one motor per drawer, and that is a small direct drive unit. Servicing is easy, the biggest constraint for servicing is the drawer type design which makes extracting parts a little more hard.
Limiting is also drawer height. While a single drawer or tall ouble drawer has a max loading height of I think 13" which is about equal to a talltub DW lower rack with the upper rack at max height, a normal double drawer limits that to I think 11.5", which is barely enough for some dinner plates. That makes slanting pots, pans and bowls to overlapp them basicly impossible.
Further, though minor concern, a DD [DishDrawer] is only more efficent if you usually do not run full loads in a standard DW. 2 drawers combined only reach an A rating in the EU, with A++ or A+++ being norm by now. And they do not have soil sensors which is usually a huge saving potential.

Another option would be to go with a verry basic GE with the "old" wash technology under the hood. For less then 350$ you get verry basic racking, lots of noise and usages up to 8.8gal with cycle times all below 2 hours.

But in general:

1) Don't be talked into something. The DW market is competitive and thus, salespersons can be verry uninterested in what might actually suit you.

2) Analyze your usage pattern.
Are you only running one load a week, or are you hateing letting the dishes sit for so long and thus run it ever other day or even every day regardless of the load?
Are your loads verry uniform in soil and kind of items (like with my mum, only our ceramics like plates, bowls and cups go in, along with glases, forks and spoons; no plastics, no knifes, no pots or pans) or do you have wildly mixed loads with wildly mixed soils of different properties?
Do you mind noise forexample as you have an open kitchen or run cycles at night?
Do you tend to just always use on cycle, or do you actually use features like specific gentle\light cycles or options like shortening a cycle for quicker though lesser results?
These factors should allow you to asess which racking functionality you acually need (like folding tines, or a third rack for cuttlery) or if you need a super silent DW or if you need a 1-wash.

3) Make sure the tine spaceing works with your dishes. Bringing some (clean of cours3) plates into a store to check that might seem weired at first, but might save you a big headache later.
Same if you select a DW with a third rack: Make sure your glases, cups, bowls or whatever you regulary put in the upper rack fits under it. These can rob up to 2" height from the top rack and that has actually caused quite a struggle for some who use tall glases, makeing a third rack more of a hazzle then a help.

This enden up far longer then I anticipated, but with big investments I use the rule "Rather spoken twice then regretted once".

Hope I could help a bit.

Post# 965888 , Reply# 8   11/3/2017 at 23:35 by johnrk (Houston)        

Thanks so much! Always a pleasure to hear from our German friends. My Euro family roots are from there.

It's strange--I bought my first d/w literally 40 years ago, a MOL GE that worked perfectly as they tended to do back then. In 6 years in that home, never a burp.

I own two Miele vacuum cleaners; they are amazing machines compared to the Chinese crap we tend to get over here. Not cheap, but they last forever.

Not living in a large urban area, my choices are unfortunately limited. A couple I know have a TOL Samsung, when it acted up recently (they purchased it at Lowe's) they had to wait 3 weeks for service to show up, then another 4 weeks for the required part.

The quality of our appliance service is awful here, I can only hope it's better for you in Deutschland.

Post# 965891 , Reply# 9   11/3/2017 at 23:44 by Real1 (Eastern WA)        

I was told that Bosch consumer full-size DW's are made in Mexico, not Germany. For a customer, I installed a slender Bosch DW that had a 120/220 converter. It also took dishwasher salt. If I remember correctly, it was made in Germany. Ironic there was a recall on the converter...could cause a fire.

I installed a full-size Bosch for a neighbor down the street. It had a couple of minor problems over the yrs I fixed, but she loves it.....very quiet.


Post# 965893 , Reply# 10   11/3/2017 at 23:54 by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

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Bosch does not have a production site in Mexico. IIRC their dishwashers for the USA market are made in New Bern, NC.

Post# 965894 , Reply# 11   11/3/2017 at 23:58 by appnut (TX)        

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Luigi, correct last time I looked. 

Post# 965906 , Reply# 12   11/4/2017 at 01:11 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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There are 4 Miele dealers in your area that sell dishwashers.

I have absolutely fallen in love with my Miele.

I sell a lot of the Dimension dishwasher. I have had really no complaints. The first thing everyone seems to say is that things seem cleaner with the Miele. <-- There are some pics I've taken if you'd like to check them out.

Our techs were sent to New Jersey for training on the dishwashers. We've torn them apart and rebuilt them and we have all been very impressed with the build quality and the simplicity of the units.

Anyways, I hope my $.02 is ok.

Post# 965914 , Reply# 13   11/4/2017 at 04:52 by Spacedogb (Lafayette, LA)        

I took out my Fisher & Paykel dishwasher to install a Futura Crystal that I got for free on CL. I love the way it cleans and the built in softener, but I do miss the versatility of the drawers. I would load one with dinner cookware and have it running while we had dinner and I could usually just add dishware to other drawer. If I still had more to add usually the first drawer would be finishing shortly after loading second.

Post# 965916 , Reply# 14   11/4/2017 at 05:47 by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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I was looking at one of these in Lowe's the other would actually work well for me since I normally run my 1985 Hobart Monterey KA with a small load every other day. Most times I use Light Wash because it has such a robust wash action, "Light" does just fine. The dish drawers would work well for me because of that....small loads of dishes.

I too dread the day my KA is no longer useable. Though I was lucky to find a very low usage machine. The lady I bought it from only used it on the holidays. So literally like 2-3 times a year. I put stainless panels on it and it looks very modern-industrial-retro. LOVE it. I also put lots of butyl insulation on the door panel and kick panel because unlike the WP variants, the Hobart is VERY loud. It's as quiet as the WP ones now...around 60 decibels or so. Which for the late 80's was super quiet! haha.

Not sure what other machines I'd replace it with honestly. Miele is an excellent choice and Bosch.

Post# 965919 , Reply# 15   11/4/2017 at 06:09 by Easyspindry (Winston-Salem, NC)        
I have a F&P . . .

. . . double drawer dishwasher. Had them for 10 years. LOVE them. No problems.

First of all, I don't use my dishwasher as a garbage disposal. The dishes are scraped before loading.

It is almost amazing the amount of dishes I can get in the drawer. AND if there are a couple of items that won't go in, the drawer uses so little water, I don't mind at all running the second drawer.

I love my drawers and would not hesitate getting another set. If I cook a meal, I can get everything in one drawer along with the breakfast dishes from that morning.

They are quiet and clean well. Of course, I have HOT water, and that helps.

The only thing you have to deal with is that the space between the wash arm and the bottom of the rack is small. If there is anything poking through the rack tongs, it will block the wash arm from turning, thus not cleaning very well.

I understand that the newer drawers -- at least one of them -- is deeper than the model I have. That might help in some unusual instances. I've put everything in mine -- dishes, pots, pans, skillets . . . never my cast iron skillet, but that's a whole different story.

When the drawer runs, they are whisper quiet. I don't men silent. You can hear them. But it's kind of like a cat purring.

I would replace them with another set without a second thought.

Also, Dishwashercrazy on this site has a set and he loves them. When I asked him what he would get if they needed replacing, he said he likes them well enough to get another set.

I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have -- or tell you I don't know.

I also have F&P washer and dryer that are 10 years old, and they are excellent appliances. F&P makes good stuff.

Good luck.

Jerry Gay

Post# 965921 , Reply# 16   11/4/2017 at 06:30 by henene4 (Germany)        

Yeah, lots of people on here have a connection to Germany.

If you really live that remote, as enviromentaly and just moraly wrong it might sound, going for the "if it breaks outside the warranty, it will be tossed" strategy might be your most stress-free route to go longterm.

Find a DW in a pricerange you'd be willing to spend every 5 or so years that has decent reviews and matches your needs as I described. And that has an approved wash system.
Then order it online from the cheapest source that alsos hauls the old appliance away and - if you really want the 0 hazzle way of doing things - intsalls it. If that source offers a resonable extended warranty policy for a decent price, it might be worth takeing that into consideration.
Then put aside oh I don't know 10-20 bucks a month.
Now, if your appliance breaks and you can't fix it yourself for areasonable price, that fund should cover a new DW. You just order the new one, and without fuzzing much with service techs and call centers, after a week or so, your new DW is installed in your kitchen.

We do that with basicly everything, washers, dryers, dishwashers, vacuums. We buy best value; most german online retailers have some offer where some machine in the bang-for-the-buck-pricrange is paired with an extended warranty all the time anyways.
Delivery is either free or 20-40 bucks, haul away is less then 20 and installation is only a tenner or such.

For example: The Whirlpool I talked about, 515$, 4 years of protection (so 5 years warranty total) are 150$, shipping is 50$. No installation service, but that is easy. So for a total of 715$ or thereabouts you'd more then likely have a DW that runs for 7+ years:

But, of course, if you'd like to go local, no matter which brand you go for, it is always a good idea to check if maybe a store near you also services the appliances they sell or, if that is not the case, to call up the service hotline of the manufacturer and check how much you'd have to pay for just the visit of a technician.

On the Bosch-topic:
I think the baseline models with the 2-piece tanks were made in Mexico at some point, but I think BSH pulled out of Mexico and even parts of Asia entirely production wise.
There standard machines however were always made (assembeled) either in Germany or the US.
With the new platform they introduced in 2010, some machines were made with exchangeable leads that would plug into the back of the machine not unlike a laptop power brick connection (that chunky one driectly on the brick, not the one that connects to the laptop). That allowed them to build one model to run on any power supply of the same voltage and thus basicly enabled them to cover the entirety of the american and european continent with 2 types of machine for each model by just throwing a different lead into the machine before packaging; I even think to remeber that BSH machines always were abled to run on both 50 and 60 Hz.
(Checking the 2-piece Bosch DW that is in the kitchen in this flat here, there is no Made in Germany inprint on the rating label, and it has the 50/60Hz rating label. Our slimline model back home has a Made in Germany labeling.)

On the Miele:
In the pictures, you can see the MultiComfort area in the back of the lower rack which is (in my opinion) one of the best things about Mieles racking.
It's basicly an area filled by racktines, but not in the way they usually are. Its basicly one big piece of tine, mounted left to right instead of vertical. Then, a flat tine mounted in a lower position and a tine with a profile kind of simmilar to a verry stretched out McDonalds arche are alternated. That creates the MultiComfort area.
The idea is that if you have a lot of plates, you can row these in either one row on either side, only one row on one side or the other or if you have big plates one row in the middle by sticking the plates with their edges into the slits that are created by the alternation of tines.
If you put the plates on the sides, the parts of that M-shape that stick up keep the plates from falling over to the front. In the middle, there is a flat section. That way, if you have large pizza or pasta plates or serving plates which would usually block the upper spray ar due to theri diameter, you stick them into these middle slit areas and tilt them forward instead of backwards. The greater angle that exists when tilted forward reduces the height of the item without adjusting the upper rack. In Germany that allows you to theoreticly wash several plates of up 13.75" (35cm) in diameter.
Now, if you do not have many plates but more pots and pans, you use the regular tines in the front area of the rack for the plates you have to wash. As the rows in the back are pretty narrowly spaced and there is one uniform surface instead of tines sticking up. Thus, you can load and stack pots verry easily. It then acts like a normal tine area with the tines folded down.
Thus, your lower rack can be basicly be anything from entirely flat to entirely stacked with plates.
The slants on the edges of that M-shape are also perfect if you have an overflow of glases or cups from the top rack. And the verry narrow gaps on the left and right edges are perfect for cutting boards to just be slit in, basicly in a 90 angle to the direction of the slits.
This rack has quite a learning curve, but once you get the hang of it, it is the biggest capacity in a lower rack I have encountered.

Post# 965922 , Reply# 17   11/4/2017 at 06:31 by henene4 (Germany)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.

Post# 965924 , Reply# 18   11/4/2017 at 06:45 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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I had them in the new house......very unique machines.....

was super great for my partner who had back issues, as bending was not a problem with the drawers....

the top drawer always seemed to be favored......

for the few minor issues I had, Glenn was a BIG help in fixing....

and so true on the garbage disposal, these machines are NOT.....several times I came home to find a clogged machine from a guest who loaded and ran a cycle without scraping the dishes first....

given the choice at the time, wished for two of them, one on each side of the sink....but I opted out for a TallTub KA, tall plates and capacity were the factor for that....

I had a new one given to me, as it was deemed defective and leaked.....the counter tops were granite, so the installer drilled holes in the side to fasten it to the cabinet....he drilled/screwed through the arms that pulled down the lids, hence the leak....

Post# 965927 , Reply# 19   11/4/2017 at 07:00 by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
F and P stuff in general is good

Jerry bought his washer and dryer after seeing the ones I had, only newer appliance I ever liked, I sold them when I sold my house in Lenoir,But truthfully, NO dishwasher is as GOOD as a Hobart Kitchen Aid, except maybe a reverse rack Maytag,there are much quieter machines now, and machines that use much less water, but for every day dishwashing with no scraping of the dishes or any preparation other than just shaking off anything on them,and consistently clean and dry dishes in a short period of time, nothing today compares.

Post# 965932 , Reply# 20   11/4/2017 at 07:47 by Easyspindry (Winston-Salem, NC)        
PS I wish . . .

. . . I had your email address. I'm glad you wrote this particular message so I could write about the F&P things. I have been unable to find your original message on this site.

Another thing I wanted to mention about the dish drawers -- when I had a standard dishwasher -- a -- Good Lord, I can't remember the name of it now -- it was a KA clone, made in the same factory as KA -- anyway, a good machine. But when the main seal started disintegrating, after many years of use, I decided to replace. Being conservative, I rarely ran it unless it was full. Therefore, many times when I need something with which to mix or cook, it was dirty in the dishwasher. Now, with the drawers, anytime I need something, it's clean and put away in its place.

The ideal set-up, in my opinion, would be to have enough room to have a drawer on either side of the sink; therefore, there would be absolutely no bending over to load and/or unload.

Good luck.

My email:

Jerry Gay

Post# 965948 , Reply# 21   11/4/2017 at 08:54 by johnrk (Houston)        

No Miele dealers 'in my area'. I have Houston listed on my profile rather than the small city where I live outside Houston. In terms of square mileage, Houston is the second largest city in the nation, and that doesn't count the 'greater metropolitan area' where I live.

There are no Miele appliance dealers around here. I bought my great Miele vacuum by driving in to Houston a bunch of years ago.

The issue is delivery cost. When I bought my Speed Queen pair in October, a Houston independent appliance dealer was roughly $300 below the cost of my local dealer. However, the delivery charge would have been over $200! So, I bought locally.

No, this isn't Hooterville where I live, it's a prosperous white-collar city, not that old, that simply is light on appliance dealers outside Lowe's and HD. And yes, our awful Sears closed earlier this year at our mall.

Post# 965957 , Reply# 22   11/4/2017 at 09:36 by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

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They've been on the market for 20 years (1996/1997) and have undergone numerous engineering revisions. Latest is series 9.

My DD603 is 14 years (& 3 months). Cycles are revised now with fewer water changes (mine does maximum of 7 on the Heavy cycle -- W-R-R-W-R-R-R) and possibly a longer wash period to facilitate detergent enzymes.

A possible advantage is that the main wash and final rinse are always heated to target temperatures so specifically hot (i.e. 120F) incoming water isn't required (although the installation instructions recommend it). There's no drying heater. Drying is via the heated final rinse (and rinse aid) with a small fan to exhaust moisture.

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