Thread Number: 77838  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Es Lebt. Es Lebt! Meiner waschmaschine Lavamat Toplader
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Post# 1018680   12/20/2018 at 22:02 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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No, not Frankenstein, but did have a bit of doing with electricity!

After having that Lavamat sitting there haunting me for months finally got around to sorting things out electrical wise.

Managed to nab a frequency/voltage converter at a very good price and it arrived earlier this week.

The thing is not very powerful (1 KvA) but wanted to see if the toplader would even accept current from such a thing before spending dear on something larger with more power. Had been warned that some European appliances with electronics don't like "dirty" current, and thus was worried about the dreaded "EHO" error still appearing after having spent dearly on a transformer. Then where would one be with both things lying about spare haunting me.

So here I am with this:



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Post# 1018681 , Reply# 1   12/20/2018 at 22:12 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Beyond testing that unit would even power up, ran drain/pump and spin cycles. All went uneventful and seemed to work as designed.

Am rushed off my feet getting ready for the upcoming holiday so likely won't get time to play further until maybe sometime after Christmas.

Obviously using the heating function is O-W-T; out. But will run at least a rinse cycle (which shouldn't engage the heater), to not only clean things out a bit, but see how machine copes with a full cycle.

Having done some research on these cold fill only machines (various English, French and German websites), how they will respond to wash temps beginning higher than what is set seems to vary.

Know with my AEG Lavamat if water temp is reached too fast and or otherwise thermostat isn't used for a determined range of cycle; the thing aborts cycle early decreasing total wash time by ten or more minutes.

Standard advice seems to be not to do this because it "confuses" the washer and throws off programs. Things like AEG's "40-60" mix use special profiles including heating that are designed to give results. Stain is another feature that seems to depend upon temp being reached at a certain time, though am not quite sure.

To keep from frying the transformer at worst and blowing fuses at best ideally the thermostat won't engage at all. That is if set to "30C" but with incoming tap water around 40C the washer will sense this if not off the bat or soon enough not to pull huge amounts of current.


Post# 1018690 , Reply# 2   12/21/2018 at 04:39 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
Congrats, but running a major appliance like a washing machine without proper ground is a very dangerous setup.
Make sure not to touch the washer`s chassis anytime when it`s plugged in as seen in picture #5 and 6. Better look for an adequate adapter or at least add a grounding wire.
Would hate to see you electrocuted if anything went wrong.


Post# 1018691 , Reply# 3   12/21/2018 at 05:38 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
On it!

launderess's profile picture
Thank you for the concerns. Glad you noticed.

Washer has standard German plug seen here: www.quora.com/Why-does-Ge...

Meaning it can be grounded either via third "pin" or from metal tabs on plug.

Have put out a call to find if simply inserting a "ground" pin into plug will suffice.

Or, can go the AEG North America route and simply remove current plug and replace with a new that suits including ground. My AEG Lavamat 88840 has an aftermarket NEMA 20A 250v plug which was obviously done by cutting off original.

Have done this several times before and so often may open up a side business. *LOL*
www.automaticwasher.org/c...




Post# 1018710 , Reply# 4   12/21/2018 at 09:01 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

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Wunderbar!

Post# 1018850 , Reply# 5   12/22/2018 at 16:49 by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

YAY! I am happy for you.

Post# 1018890 , Reply# 6   12/23/2018 at 02:13 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        


Excellent! Congratulations!!!


Post# 1018897 , Reply# 7   12/23/2018 at 05:46 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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Ja, das ist gut!  Glad you have it working even if not at full capacity yet.


Post# 1019122 , Reply# 8   12/26/2018 at 09:43 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Pity of it all is

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That there is a way to make this washer run on 60hz from factory. Well at least one assumes so going by my Lavamat 88840.

Loading the machine other night for a wash glanced at the rating/information plate. It clearly says 2100 watts at 50hz for 10 amps. Pretty much same as the toplader. Thus *something* is done to make those German machines run on North American 230v at 60hz.



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Post# 1024898 , Reply# 9   2/17/2019 at 11:21 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Kaput!

launderess's profile picture
Spent much of morning cleaning up the Lavamat toplader including running a few rinses then a hot water wash product to scrub things out.

Washer went through paces lovely, nice bit of kit I thought to myself, then came the first wash load.

After putting in the wash, setting program, pushed "start", and machine began to fill; that is all she would or rather could do. Soon as motor began to turn drum the converter threw a fault code. Reset and tried again but all was same. Converter code says "abnormal current". Which one takes to mean motor is drawing more power than the converter can supply so thing is cutting out to protect itself.

Tried again with a much smaller load (few pairs of flannel pants, and a hoodie; same result. Put things into the other AEG and toplader goes back into its' cubby.

Will contact customer service for converter on Monday but am nearly certain reply is going to be thing is under powered.

Oh well, live and learn, that's what I say. Thankfully only gave very little for this converter as an experiment. At least know the machine will work in this manner, now just have to save my pennies and keep on the look out for a more powerful unit at good price.



Post# 1024901 , Reply# 10   2/17/2019 at 11:42 by vacbear58 (Sutton In Ashfield & London UK)        
Converters

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Laundress

Have you considered having not one converter but two wired in parallel. I had a similar issue with step down converters to allow me to run the half dozen or so American and Canadian vacuums I have here. A single step down transformer of suitable capacity was quite a bit more money than two of lower capacity which in combination had a slightly higher capacity that the single unit.

A picture will explain better than I can, and it works!


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Post# 1024908 , Reply# 11   2/17/2019 at 11:57 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Thanks luv

launderess's profile picture
My issue is one needs both a converter and voltage transformer.

Voltage converters have in spades. In fact after some disasters settled down with two from a highly recommended brand, and have had no troubles since. Can run whatever I fancy, ironers, other AEG washer, the lot.

This converter is rated for 1KvA at 4.1 amps on 208v-240v. Washer motor only draws 250w washing and 350w for spinning. Neither is > 2 amps which is well within specs.

That machine will run empty, but not loaded tells me it has something to do with power draw when motor is under load.

Soon as took laundry out and reset machine to rinse and spin, it did so without bother.


Post# 1024910 , Reply# 12   2/17/2019 at 12:19 by vacbear58 (Sutton In Ashfield & London UK)        


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I understand what you are saying but the principle should still hold good if you had two converters wired as shown.

I would imagine the problem is a power surge to overcome the inertia of the drum when it is in the resting position and indeed the problem my even be more pronounced when rinsing when there would be even more water in the drum leading to greater inertia


Post# 1024913 , Reply# 13   2/17/2019 at 12:42 by henene4 (Germany)        

Yeah, worst case the motor draws up to short circuit current of the motor windings on startup for a verry brief period.

Dunno the specs of this motor, but guessing this could be 10A or even significantly more.



Without load, the current draw there gets lower quicker then with a load.


Post# 1024918 , Reply# 14   2/17/2019 at 13:41 by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        
MEINE Waschmaschine

Assuming you meant nominative declension of a feminine noun, "Meiner Waschmaschine" would exist only in dative or genitive declension, i.e. "mit* meiner Waschmaschine..." (with my washing machine...) or "der Preis meiner Waschmaschine..." (the price of my washing machine...).

I'm afraid Mr Boilwash, Henene4, and Panthera would insist. Ach, richtige deutsche Grammatik ist von Amis nicht zu erwarten.

*aus, ausser/außer, bei, mit, nach, seit, von, und zu brauchen immer DATIV.


Post# 1024938 , Reply# 15   2/17/2019 at 15:30 by henene4 (Germany)        
German grammar

Not to worry, my grammar is anywhere between "superb" and "second week learning the language" for both german and english, depending on mood, state and degree of rush I am in.

And one of that is my native language....


Post# 1024939 , Reply# 16   2/17/2019 at 15:37 by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        

Please keep us posted on the prognosis of your Lavamat

Die deutsche Grammatik:

German adjective/noun declension poses a unique set of challenges to learners.

German has 3 genders plus a plural and 4 cases (nominative, genitive, dative, and accusative). That makes a 4x4 grid with 16 slots to be filled. The same applies to adjectives.* That gives you a total of 32 slots.

If you're coming from a language with little or no inflection (like English), you look at German endings and wonder what in the world you're supposed to do with them.

OTOH, if you're approaching German adjective/noun declension from a highly inflected language (like Polish), you look at the 32 slots and expect upward of 2 dozen distinct endings to be applied.

IIRC, German has ..... (wait for it) ..... 5: null, -e, -(e)s, -(e)r, & -(e)n.

Yes, 5 endings to fill 32 slots.

From an English speaker's perspective 5 is an overwhelming number. From my Polish speaker's perspective (which is my only concept of declension) I'm mystified as to how 5 endings can be enough to allow declensions to do their job.

* I'm not touching strong vs weak for the sake of clarity.

Mind you, I took 3 years of German in college, got good grades and enjoyed it. About 10 years after graduation I spent a week in Schleswig-Holstein and was pleasantly surprised at how few problems I had. Yes I know. I've been jokingly accused of "cheating" because Platt- is considered by some to be much closer to English than Hoch- is.

German grammar has all sorts of cool things I'd like to (re)introduce into English. Da- (darin, darauf, etc.) comes to mind. I distinctly remember actually LIKING the verb structure. Actually, the adjective/noun declension thing was my single largest problem. Yes, I eventually learned the patterns, but that still left a lot of blank spaces in my mind. Yes, I know a lot of it runs on the logic English does with -'s. I.e. Despite 3 different meanings there's no confusion because only 1 works in any given instance. But I never shook the feeling there was some underlying concept I failed to grasp.

No, really.... If anyone can clarify this I'm all ears:-)

But please have pity on those of us who haven't yet mastered this...

Jim



Post# 1024941 , Reply# 17   2/17/2019 at 15:52 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Same here, would never dare to insist on perfect grammar.
As a native Bavarian who is not a bit ashamed of speaking the dialect some might say my German grammar is even worse than my English.

Every attempt of anyone to speak in my language is highly appreciated. If I don`t get what they mean I can still ask further questions.

When I arrived at the central station for the first time in my life in Paris I needed to buy a couple of different tickets for the metro.
I decided to go to a counter instead of a vending machine. My French is really poor but Gosh can you imagine how proud I was when the guy gave me exactly the tickets that I needed.


Post# 1024944 , Reply# 18   2/17/2019 at 16:27 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Rating plate says 10amps max

launderess's profile picture
But one assumed much of that was for heaters. Guess am proven wrong. Curses, foiled again......

Well at least the thing is cleaned out for most part now. Don't know what previous owner was laundering in this machine but am finding all sorts of bramble like bits inside machine.

Shame can't get things going, this washer is nearly new, just like my other AEG when it arrived.


Post# 1024947 , Reply# 19   2/17/2019 at 17:32 by henene4 (Germany)        
10A rating

You have to keep the difference between momentary and continuous load in mind.

A heater is usually a continuous load. From the point you turn it on through the entire run time it basicly always pulls the same power.
Resistive loads in general have that behaviour.

Motors as in washers, dryers or compressors have inductive and capacitive properties.
Thus, they have an inrush and a running current.



For example, a motor in stalled position (all magnetic field lines aling) doesn't have capacitive properties anymore. Thus the windings basicly act as a low ohm resistor and the motor draws the maximum current.

Once a motor turns itself and the system it is attached to has inertia.
It only spends a verry short time in each position, the magnetic fields are always moving through each other, so it is more of an inductive and capacitive system.
Basic law of induction: conductors and magnetic fields that move in relation to each other always induce currents in each other.
Basicly, the motor draws less power because it induces a current against the supply current in it self.

If there is no load in the machine, the drum and motor get into running state faster then when empty. Thus, that inrush current draw to start the magnetic fields and movement is verry short.
Once the machine is loaded, these inrush currents take longer to subside.


Some machines use capacitors to reduce that startup draw, but it will still be there.



That initial inrush current does not have to be labeled on home appliances as it usually is drawn for an insignificant amount of time.

The longest startup draw that comes to my mind is the early Frigidaire washers with one timer increment in start winding during spin up, but even there the current drops quickly.

House wiring has enough head room to handle those short spikes and fuses are designed to allow for them.
Fuses don't trip immediately.
You often see it here in Germany that if the ground fault interuptor trips, the relating fuses don't as it has to trigger far sooner then a fuse, even though a ground fault often means significant current draw.
A fuse only checks for to high current draw to protect against fires in overload situations.
And if you run wiring even at double its rated capacity, it often will survive without a care for several seconds.



Your converter basicly does 2 things which are entirely separate.

First it uses an step-up transformer. Transformers aren't all that expensive and hard to build and generally are verry rugged items as they are solid state.
They need an AC supply and change only the voltage, not the frequency.

Next, they turn that AC into DC.
You need a full bridge rectifier for that. That uses just 4 diodes, and those are solid state to.

The thing makeing higher current draw problematic is turning that DC back into AC.
You basicly play a fun switching game.
You dump all the DC into capacitors.
Then you switch the DC supply on and off verry fast, basicly pulse width modulating it. You slowly increase the on time, then slowly decrease it again, then switch polarity.

Every time a switch switches - be it a transistor or a physical relay - there is some energy lost in heat, proportional to the current being drawn.
Thus, the switching components heat up immensely.
They have to be cooled thus.

Up to about 250W, that is no issue, but from there on, it gets problematic and expensive.

Thus, the converter basicly has a smart fuse in it allowing current flows over the rating up to a certain degree for a verry short time.

If the overload goes on for more then a few seconds or a certain wattage is reached, it immediately cuts the power so no damage can occur.

Your machine accidentally is just below that when empty and just above that when loaded.




The worst culprits in these situations are compressors and heat pumps.
They don't even use that much energy when running,but on start up the load on the motor in them is rather big as the pressure difference between low and high pressure side is verry large.

Thus, for example, many manufacturers of inverters for solar equipment AND many fridges and even some heat pump dryers state that you can not use them with each other.
Solar panels produce DC and only DC, so you have to convert that into AC for use in the grid and your house. Same for battery storage.
While the inverter could run a fridge continuously with no issue, that verry short start up current spike is just to much for the inverter.


Post# 1024957 , Reply# 20   2/17/2019 at 21:12 by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

I am convinced that my ancestors left Ostpreußen in the 1860s to seek a better life in America----they were fleeing from German grammar!!

Post# 1024960 , Reply# 21   2/17/2019 at 21:25 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        
What do you mean finnish is hard? ;-)

Saw this floating on the intarwebs some time ago, figured you people could get a kick out of it:

English: A dog.
Swedish: What?
English: The dog.
English: Two dogs.
Swedish: Okay. We have: En hund, hunden, Två hundar, hundarna.
German: Wait, I wan't to try it too!
English: No, go away.
Swedish: No one invited you.
German: Der Hund.
English: I said go away.
German: Ein Hund, zwei Hunde.
Swedish: Stop it!
German: Den Hund, einen Hund, dem Hund, einem Hund, des Hundes, eines Hundes, den Hunden, der Hunden.
Finnish: Sup.
English: NO.
Swedish: NO.
German: NO. Finn, you go away!!
Finnish: Koira, koiran, koiraa, koiran again, koirassa, koirasta, koiraan, koiralla, koiralta, koiralle, koirana, koiraksi, koiratta, koirineen, koirin.
German: WHAT?
Swedish: You must be kidding us!
English: This must be a joke...
Finnish: Aaaand... koirasi, koirani, koiransa, koiramme, koiranne, koiraani, koiraasi, koiraansa, koiraamme, koiraanne, koirassani, koirassasi, koirassansa, koirassamme, koirassanne, koirastani, koirastasi, koirastansa, koirastamme, koirastanne, koirallani, koirallasi, koirallansa, koirallamme, koirallanne, koiranani, koiranasi, koiranansa, koiranamme, koirananne, koirakseni, koiraksesi, koiraksensa, koiraksemme, koiraksenne, koirattani, koirattasi, koirattansa, koirattamme, koirattanne, koirineni, koirinesi, koirinensa, koirinemme, koirinenne.
English: Those are words for a dog???
Finnish: Wait! I didn't stop yet. There is still: koirakaan, koirankaan, koiraakaan, koirassakaan, koirastakaan, koiraankaan, koirallakaan, koiraltakaan, koirallekaan, koiranakaan, koiraksikaan, koirattakaan, koirineenkaan, koirinkaan, koirako, koiranko, koiraako, koirassako, koirastako, koiraanko, koirallako, koiraltako, koiralleko, koiranako, koiraksiko, koirattako, koirineenko, koirinko, koirasikaan, koiranikaan, koiransakaan, koirammekaan, koirannekaan, koiraanikaan, koiraasikaan, koiraansakaan, koiraammekaan, koiraannekaan, koirassanikaan, koirassasikaan, koirassansakaan, koirassammekaan, koirassannekaan, koirastanikaan, koirastasikaan, koirastansakaan, koirastammekaan, koirastannekaan, koirallanikaan, koirallasikaan, koirallansakaan, koirallammekaan, koirallannekaan, koirananikaan, koiranasikaan, koiranansakaan, koiranammekaan, koiranannekaan, koiraksenikaan, koiraksesikaan, koiraksensakaan, koiraksemmekaan, koiraksennekaan, koirattanikaan, koirattasikaan, koirattansakaan, koirattammekaan, koirattannekaan, koirinenikaan, koirinesikaan, koirinensakaan, koirinemmekaan, koirinennekaan, koirasiko, koiraniko, koiransako, koirammeko, koiranneko, koiraaniko, koiraasiko, koiraansako, koiraammeko, koiraanneko, koirassaniko, koirassasiko, koirassansako, koirassammeko, koirassanneko, koirastaniko, koirastasiko, koirastansako, koirastammeko, koirastanneko, koirallaniko, koirallasiko, koirallansako, koirallammeko, koirallanneko, koirananiko, koiranasiko, koiranansako, koiranammeko, koirananneko, koirakseniko, koiraksesiko, koiraksensako, koiraksemmeko, koiraksenneko, koirattaniko, koirattasiko, koirattansako, koirattammeko, koirattanneko, koirineniko, koirinesiko, koirinensako, koirinemmeko, koirinenneko, koirasikaanko, koiranikaanko, koiransakaanko, koirammekaanko, koirannekaanko, koiraanikaanko, koiraasikaanko, koiraansakaanko, koiraammekaanko, koiraannekaanko, koirassanikaanko, koirassasikaanko, koirassansakaanko, koirassammekaanko, koirassannekaanko, koirastanikaanko, koirastasikaanko, koirastansakaanko, koirastammekaanko, koirastannekaanko, koirallanikaanko, koirallasikaanko, koirallansakaanko, koirallammekaanko, koirallannekaanko, koirananikaanko, koiranasikaanko, koiranansakaanko, koiranammekaanko, koiranannekaanko, koiraksenikaanko, koiraksesikaanko, koiraksensakaanko, koiraksemmekaanko, koiraksennekaanko, koirattanikaanko, koirattasikaanko, koirattansakaanko, koirattammekaanko, koirattannekaanko, koirinenikaanko, koirinesikaanko, koirinensakaanko, koirinemmekaanko, koirinennekaanko, koirasikokaan, koiranikokaan, koiransakokaan, koirammekokaan, koirannekokaan, koiraanikokaan, koiraasikokaan, koiraansakokaan, koiraammekokaan, koiraannekokaan, koirassanikokaan, koirassasikokaan, koirassansakokaan, koirassammekokaan, koirassannekokaan, koirastanikokaan, koirastasikokaan, koirastansakokaan, koirastammekokaan, koirastannekokaan, koirallanikokaan, koirallasikokaan, koirallansakokaan, koirallammekokaan, koirallannekokaan, koirananikokaan, koiranasikokaan, koiranansakokaan, koiranammekokaan, koiranannekokaan, koiraksenikokaan, koiraksesikokaan, koiraksensakokaan, koiraksemmekokaan, koiraksennekokaan, koirattanikokaan, koirattasikokaan, koirattansakokaan, koirattammekokaan, koirattannekokaan, koirinenikokaan, koirinesikokaan, koirinensakokaan, koirinemmekokaan, koirinennekokaan.
Swedish: Breath!!
German: Whattaaa?
English: Okay, now you're just making things up!
Finnish: And now the plural forms.....


Post# 1024972 , Reply# 22   2/17/2019 at 23:39 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
@henene4

launderess's profile picture
Thank you for detailed information, quite useful.

Much of it one had already knew or worked out over the years. When one has several German appliances requiring 208v-230v power and so forth, one does learn. *LOL*

All dealers in converters (voltage, frequency) that one has seen go into detail about what can and cannot be done, how to size load to match voltage requirements and so forth. They are most particular in explaining about things like air conditioners, refrigerators, washing machines and other appliances with motors that can cause huge rushes of current at initial start-up.

This particular converter is on the puny side. At only 1KvA it can give near 5amps, which clearly isn't enough to power the heaters, but thought might squeak through a wash. Again before investing serious money on something remotely appropriately sized wanted to see if the swinehund machine would actually accept such power. If it threw another EHO or whatever code demanding "pure" 50hz, it would have been sold on, and used the converter for my kaltmangel/heissmangel.

This being said since washer will operate without laundry, there must be a sweet spot in loading. That is obviously 5.5 kilos of cottons/linens simply won't work, but maybe less? Hardly seem likely to haul this machine out for just one wool jumper, but maybe when have time will see what there is to be done.

Meanwhile will simply keep one's eyes out for a converter with proper heft for the job at hand.


Post# 1024973 , Reply# 23   2/18/2019 at 00:09 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Voltage "converter"I have a HID lamp whose ballast required 208-240V I ordered a 2Kva auto transformer converter from a company "GoHz"They also have frequency converters and VFD devices.I WOULD NOT parallel convertors-get one for the power you need instead-better and safer.The one for my light is 2Kw Both the lamp ballast and converter run cool as can be.Ordered the device online-one of the few things I order that way.Came from Amazon.The converter I have can also be used to step 220-240 v to 120 v if desired.If I should get any 220V vacuums the converter I have should power them OK.The outlets for the higher voltage on the GoHz converter match most plugs.A Shuckel converter plug came with my unit.

Post# 1024978 , Reply# 24   2/18/2019 at 01:37 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Ours is GoHz as well. They do offer converters up to 4Kva, 5Kva and above, but all are very dear. Hence reason for pouncing on one for *very* little money.

They receive queries from all over world about running washing machines from 60hz to 50hz, and vice versa. Most common response is pretty much "well you can, but the converter will cost as much or more than a new washing machine".



CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK


Post# 1024980 , Reply# 25   2/18/2019 at 01:54 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Aside from the electrical drama

launderess's profile picture
Have to say the AEG Lavamat toplader is a nice bit of kit.

First the thing is virtually silent during operation. All one hears are muffled sounds of sloshing water and laundry tumbling about. Spin cycles, well they are what they are but on the whole rather quiet as well.

Sadly this unit does not seem to have a feature which automatically repositions drum "right side up" after cycle is complete. Or maybe it does and haven't gotten around to noticing. Having twice having to remove wet laundry involved griping a hot and slippery wet tub, then trying to turn it so could get door flaps in proper position. Once that was done and flaps open tub remained in place.

It does seem everything is controlled off the PCB board. Swear can hear "clicks" as the board stops and reverses the drum.

Like my other Lavamat this washer does not have a cycle guarantee. It will minus out time if water heated faster than it should, only this machine shows such display at end of cycle.

A thirty minute "30c" Cottons/Normal wash cycle seemed to go well. That is unlike the other AEG it washed for set time (or so I thought), and went onto rinses. Glanced over at display while passing washer and it read around 20 or less minutes remaining. Went back about my business but when glanced over again a bit later cycle was complete and display read "0".

Ran the sums and about 14 minutes was deducted. This is not good.


Post# 1024984 , Reply# 26   2/18/2019 at 03:31 by henene4 (Germany)        
AEG toploaders - Henrik approved

The main reason I stear TL buyers towards AEG is the detergent drawer.

There are as far as I overview only 3 major TL producers here in the EU anymore: Whirlpool corporation, Miele and AEG.

Whirlpool has this horrible detergent dispenser mounted unter the lid.
Horrible to clean, horrible to use.
Sadly, even the TLs sold by BSH here are Whirlpool sourced.

AEG has the nice detergent drawer in the back. Easy to reach, easy to clean.

Miele (of course) has a full drawer setup.


WP only sells models up to 1200rpm (or maybe 1300rpm), Miele up to 1400rpm and AEG even up to 1500rpm.

Further, AEG has TL machines with recirculation (and as of recently, even their ÖkoMix system).
AEG is basicly the only manufacturer of a close-to-no compromise TL for an acceptable price.

Though, one can not compare their durability to Miele.

However, as TLs are mostly machines used by apartment dwellers who have no other option, it is verry questionable if one even needs the machine in 20 years time.




Electrolux was basicly the best example for early gen "Fuzzy Logic" cycle optimisation.

They had something verry interesting: Fixed time-line countdowns.
At least I have never seen a machine jump across the time from these generations.
If a machine displayed 2:12 at the beginning, it would count down each minute, no matter what. It wouldn't add time, it wouldn't substract time.
HOWEVER a minute isn't a minute in the machines logic.
Each "time intervall" could be basicly anything.

So, if a load was small, the countdown would speed up. If heating was faster, the machine would speed on.
If heating took longer, the timer stalled. If balancing needed additional time, the timer would either stall or run until the spin was just cancelled.
On the dryers, if loads dried slowly, the machine would just sit before cooldwon for however long it needed.

Basicly, the machine had a timetable for each cycle and knew exactly what state it had to be in at any increment.
How long each increment was was then determined by fuzzy logic or just by plain fact.

Only some higher end machines or later iterations finally learned a true load sensing and cycle adaption that actually just cut down the displayed time.
However, they do still sometimes use stalling for heating delays or such.




On these machines, yes indeed everything is controlled via one single control board (with exceptions).
They use the EWM21 platform.

These were before the plug and play setup, so, basicly every model had its own control panel manufactured.

However, there were 2 sub-boards possible:
If the machine was a washer dryer, it had a dryer board on top that managed dryness sensing, switching the heaters, all that stuff.
If the machine had an inverter motor, it had an inverter sub board in the back bottom of the machine (though those were tchnicly EWM2500 machines then).

Machines with a brushed universal motors like yours had the motor control housed in the main PCB.
Control was pretty simple. IIRC it was a relay for reversing and a DC PWM control with tacho feedback. I think, not sure though.

Here are the links to most of the service maunals for that generation:
www.manualslib.com/produc...
www.manualslib.com/products/Elec...

They didn't even change much after that. They seperated main PCB and UI board at some point.
So, they only produced 2 main boards as far as I know (one for brushed motors, one for inverters), then a bunch of "dumb" UI boards and the add in boards stayed basicly the same.
Configuration decided what could do what.
So they minimized cost and broadend the avaible model versions.




Your machine does have a drum positioning system.

It uses a sensor near the drum pully to determine when the drum is in top postion.
When cycles are paused, the machine allows 10sec for sucessfull positioning, at the end of a full cycle, the maximum time is 2min. Otherwise it just times out.

However, the machine does not have a drum position locking system.
Only machine that has that that I am aware of are Mieles.

Thus, if the machine had an out of balance spin and laundry stays stuck to the drum, the machine might position sucessfully, but the drum slowly drifts from position afterwards.
With wet loads, I can see that system just straight up failing.

The sensor does have a specific error code if it is broken.
More detail on that is in the service manuals I linked above.
There is a paragraph about checking the sensor as well.


Post# 1024986 , Reply# 27   2/18/2019 at 05:09 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I agree with Henrik, the AEG (and other Electrolux brands) are the best buy of the European made brands. It's a pity Bosch stopped making them, they have made decent products in the past.

My mother had a Zanker, so an AEG product with just another label on it. I noticed indeed that the automatic repostioning of the drum didn't work very well. You often needed to turn the drum yourself. The highest spinspeed (1300rpm on hers) was only achieved at the end, I haven't clocked it but it wasn't very long I'm sure.

Thomson-Brandt, once another big manufacturer went bankrupt soon after merging with Moulinex. After that the brand was sold on a few times, it's part of Cevital nowadays, a company in Algeria. Their toploaders (Brandt, Thomson, Vedette) are manufactured in Algeria nowadays.

Candy/Hoover has toploaders too, but unfortunately the company was taken over by Haier and their toploaders are made in China nowadays IIRC.


Post# 1024991 , Reply# 28   2/18/2019 at 06:10 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Thomson-Brandt was (and or still is for all one knows) very popular in French homes appliance wise. Saw many washing machines by Brandt in the apartments of my friends in Paris and other areas of France.

Post# 1024992 , Reply# 29   2/18/2019 at 08:04 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Yes, Brandt was bought up, and there was put new life into the company. So they are still on the market, but no longer made in France.

Post# 1025067 , Reply# 30   2/18/2019 at 22:48 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
*Fingers Crossed Lads*

launderess's profile picture
Another day, and am in for the kill.

Loaded up the toplader with two pillow slips (poly satin), and two synthetic thermal pullovers. Since none of these are cotton shan't absorb much if any water.

Set washer to "pflegeleicht", then hit start.

Waited until after machine filled before adding detergent, (am not wasting any more product in case this experiment goes like the others yesterday), and thus far she's bang on!

Washer filed a bit, did the AEG "load calculation tumble", added more water and began cycle. Waited about three minutes then stopped washer to add detergent.

So far am about ten minutes into a 1:13 hour cycle and no issues. According to meters on converter washer goes no higher than about 3.4 amps while tumbling. At the pauses things of course are nil. Power wise she's pulling nothing higher than a bit over 220v.

Guess am correct in presuming this converter doesn't have the oomph to supply proper power for a full sopping wet load of 5.5kg cottons/linens. Or likely anything else nearing such as a heavy wool blanket, vintage linen sheets or whatever.

Until one can supply a more powerful converter this will have to do; now it is just a game of deciding what loads can and cannot go. Several shirts? Maybe. Several pairs of jeans? Think not. Happily have the Miele and other AEG along with the Maytag and Hoover, so am spoiled for choice.

Will update once cycle completes. Stay tuned!


Post# 1025069 , Reply# 31   2/18/2019 at 22:50 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Oh and I was right.

launderess's profile picture
All drum movements are controlled off the PCB board. There are very audible clicks as drum is stopped and restarted in reverse.

Wrong on the drum positioning. Machine does have it, as found out when stopped unit to add detergent. Could hear washer messing about attempting to align tub opening. However it was all for naught; weight of wet washing will decide if things line up or not. That is the machine *may* get the drum right, but it does not fix things into position.


Post# 1025097 , Reply# 32   2/19/2019 at 12:06 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Well that's sorted

launderess's profile picture
Did another load after first (delicates), and both went without a hitch.

So now it becomes a question of finding the sweet spot; that is loads that will work for the time being.

Must say am impressed with the rinsing in this AEG toplader. Was going to activate the "extra rinse" setting, but find machine does well enough (so far) with normal profile.

In aid of clearing out whatever is festering in the pump and or getting the pong out of washer (from being shut up for so long); am trying to run many loads. Wiped down the boot and top lid seal with a bit of vinegar (and scrubbed the latter with a small brush) to get at bits of mould, and again to freshen things up. This morning after leaving lid up overnight for things to dry out, machine does smell better. Most of the pong is gone.


Post# 1025105 , Reply# 33   2/19/2019 at 15:23 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Henrik was right of course

launderess's profile picture
Had long conversation with technical support and as one presumed unit is woefully undersized to cope with full motor load from washer. Will need something in the 5KVA range or above.

Converter is operating as it should; cutting itself off as means of self-protection against sudden in rush/spike in current.

Am not telling veteran appliance people on this forum something they don't already know; but for others....

Washing machine and other motors can draw sudden high in rush in current. Usually this is when under load and starting. Tech ran calculations based upon ratings for this motor (about max 350 watts at 2.8 amps when spinning) and figured out five to six times that would be needed in a converter to handle a full load. This gets you to about 12 amps or so required.

Tried again earlier today with a load of bed sheets (4lbs) and it was kaput; load too great. As machine was out and didn't want things to be a total loss did a small load of one dress shirt and three pull overs. That is going fine for now. Will bung the wet sheets into either the Miele or AEG front loader later.

So that's me for you. Until can save up for a larger converter this toplader will only see light duty. Oh well, live and learn.....


Post# 1025110 , Reply# 34   2/19/2019 at 16:43 by Marky_mark (Sitges, Barcelona)        

marky_mark's profile picture
I’ve heard that some of these voltage/frequency converters trip immediately on overload, such as the inrush current during the split second that the motor starts turning. Others are designed to take perhaps a 150% overload for 30 seconds etc. On the other hand I believe a regular transformer will cope quite well with these very brief overloads. I did some research on these converters as I wanted to buy one but the higher power ones I saw (to cope with the inrush) cost thousands. In the end I didn’t buy one.

Have you tried running it through a regular transformer, therefore running on 60 Hz? Or just regular 208/240V 60 Hz if your apartment has it. If so, I’d be really interested to know what happens. I’m wondering if it will either work perfectly or the electronics will simply refuse to operate. All or nothing. Let us know!

As for as the lack of grounding/earthing, due to the German “Schuko” style plug being used in the “wrong” type of socket on your converter.....the converters I saw essentially acted as an isolating transformer, meaning that there was no use for grounding or a GFCI after the converter for the connected appliance. However the wiring was configurable and I don’t know how yours is set up.

Good luck! I hope you find a way to use it to its full potential!


Post# 1025127 , Reply# 35   2/19/2019 at 18:48 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Grounding

launderess's profile picture
Forgot to mention; that issue was sorted: www.mnhomeoutlet.com/vct-...

Wouldn't trust the thing for pulling high wattage, but since aren't planning at this stage to use washer's heating element, will do for now.

Yes, this converter is designed to be rather sensitive; likely because it does both converter frequency and voltage.

It *might* be possible to put a variable control drive into this set-up, but am not going down that path for now. Will just wait until can get a more powerful converter.

Issue isn't voltage per se; converter's internal diagnostics confirm this; but rather pushing it beyond limitations. 1KVA works out to be around 500 or so watts IIRC; clearly not enough to power a motor that must move 3,4 or 5 kilos of heavy wet washing. Of course it just might be the choice of motor for this washer as well. It uses a universal brush; but one wonders if an inverter motor would have less issues.


However a properly sized "step-up/down" converter would have no problem handing this washer. Many have run an AEG or other European washers or even dryers in USA or elsewhere in world on such devices. My problem is the blasted PCB board won't accept 60hz power. Hence the need for this specific dual converter.

Those running washing machines in "off the grid" environments and using inverters or certain generators have same issues. The "in rush" of current by motor for tumbling and or spinning is more than the device can handle. Sometimes a washer will spin at low speeds, but as it ramps up (and pulling more power) things give out.

Such persons have same situation as myself; it can be difficult to calculate "in rush" current requirements. Those familiar with such things can do the sums and arrive at a pretty good estimate (like tech spoke with earlier). But for rest of us lay persons best estimate is sizing something twice, thrice or more maximum rated current draw.

Thing is unlike a resistive load (such as heating) which builds gradually and or if prolonged can cause a fuse or breaker to go by over heating/taxing a circuit; these in rush loads cause sudden (but short) very high spikes in power draw. Converter cannot tell what or why this is happening so just treats all such events same; shuts down.

Mind you for a device that costs thousands, it darn well had better have some sort of decent internal self protection. Can you imagine paying three thousand quid only to have a unit blow itself out first day or so in use due to an overload?





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