Thread Number: 77973
/ Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Bosch or FisherPaykel Dishwasher?
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|Post# 1019880   1/2/2019 at 20:45 by tomdawg (Des moines)  || |
I have an opportunity to buy a floor model dishwasher at a huge discounted price, the store is currently going to move and they are planning to liquidate everything...
usually would buy a bosch, but two people I know bought a fisher paykel dish drawer and love them.. so now im torn.
Anyone had experience with fisher paykel?
|Post# 1019898 , Reply# 1   1/2/2019 at 22:03 by henene4 (Germany)  || |
These are 2 entirely different concepts of DW.
Which Bosch model would be in question?
And would it be a double or a single drawer?
My point of decission would be how you use your DW usually.
If you only do the dishes for 2 people or so, the DishDrawer would probably be the better idea.
Allows you to wash dishes as needed, and seperate items as applicable (for example normal dishes in a more efficent programm in one and a heavy wash for the other drawer with pans and such).
Also great if you do lots of cooking often. A double drawer there would allow you to prepare one dish, load one drawer with those prep dishes, run that while you prep another dish, then load the second drawer with the second prep dishes.
Never have dishes stacking, or waiting for the DW to finish.
However, no plate bigger than 12" is supposed to fit in the DishDrawers, so no baking sheets or such.
There are more parts to go wrong in total (especially in a DoubleDrawer, but either way the internal drawer lid can theoreticly go wrong and uncarefull loading could lead to malfunction IN THEORY - in practise that really depends) and overall efficency can be seen as slightly lower compared to a Bosch if you always run both drawers.
A good read of the manual also shows that no US version offers any prewash on any cycle. And cycle temperatures a generally on the lower side, but cycle times are OK.
But apparently no sensor cycle for the US.
Bosch is IMO the benchmark of "normal" DWs.
Incredibly efficent, incredibly silent, yet relatively quick and basicly always spotless performance.
The current design has been in production for several years and most parts are universal for most machines, making pumps, control boards and such verry easily avaible and reasonably priced and they probably will be around for years to come.
Not that you'd likely need it. The biggest issues here in the EU are with gunked up pathways in the water pocket and the Zeolith drying system, neither being present on US versions. Next most common failure was the heating system which is integrated in the pump which makes these repairs pretty costly for what the failure mode is.
Once you get used the racking it is incredibly versatile. With all racks in place, you can wash items up to 13.4" in the bottom rack while still having 7" in the top rack plus cuttlery tray.
With a large item spray head (a 20$ or so accerssory, possibly even included) you can wash items as high as the enterior (up to about 22" large items).
With cycles washing at up to 160F you probably have more cleaning power to select from.
However, servicing them IMO is a little more challenging as you often have to tear deep into the machine.
Drying on these machines is completly static, so to get proper drying results, opening the dishwasher right after the cycle end is advisable.
These machines only are as economic as they appear to be when run fully loaded, thus they are more geared towards the typical family running pretty simmilar loads all the time, mostly consisting of plates, cups and cuttlery.
And, well, they are nothing to be admired and noticed. Bosch dishwashers for a long time have been about doing the job simply efficently and with as little noticeability as possible. So if the buying decission is about having a verry fun and interesting machine, Bosch is probably not the way to go. A Bosch DW comes into the kitchen, does its job quietly sitting in a corner for a few years and then leaves without you ever hearing it or being annoyed by it.
But more detailed comparisson would be easier if you could provide us with information as to which models you are considering exactly.
|Post# 1019914 , Reply# 2   1/2/2019 at 23:10 by tomdawg (Des moines)  || |
The Bosch Dishwasher: SHP865WD5N
Fisher paykel: DD24DV2T9 N
Im building a house, which is why im on the hunt for a good new dishwasher!
I currently own a TOL Whirlpool and I hate it. takes 4.5 hours to wash dishes and does a mediocre job cleaning. we run it everyday, sometimes twice a day. My wife bakes a lot and we cook all the time.
Im more concerned about cleaning- then some reliability, I do know how to fix appliances- so it doesn't bother me to fix something.
I have a growing family so it would probably run twice a day in the near future.
|Post# 1019920 , Reply# 3   1/3/2019 at 01:16 by henene4 (Germany)  || |
Cycle time wise both machines shouldn't take longer than 3h tops, that is on the longest cycle and option combination.
Cleaning wise both machines should hold up simmilarly in your projected usage scenario.
There is only one thing I still would have my doubts about:
While on freshly soiled loads with well scraped items a prewash in the cycle isn't really necessary, if you have either loads that sat a little longer or have larger amounts of soils in loads (for example batter from bakeing) you either have to start to rinse by hand (which defeats any savings any efficent DW could produce; keep in mind a DW can pre-rinse a full load with no more then a gallon of water) or just play "I'm feeling lucky" with what the machine would handle and what not.
The DishDrawers do have a seperate rinse cycle, but that is rather inconvenient again. And as these do not have soil sensors, the complete responsibility of ensuring proper preperation is up to you.
The "Auto" cycle on the Bosch takes all that off you.
Also, in heavy soil scenarios, the Bosch would probably get out ahead as well.
First of, it has the ability to wash far hotter then the DD (DishDrawer).
Second, the DDs only have a spray arm at the bottom of each chamber. So for example on mixing bowls the side facing top would only be cleaned by the backwash of any water splashing past it. I have heared annectdotal evidence that in certain scenarios that can even lead to a greater chance of residues in the bottom sides of mugs as there is no true spray from above.
The Bosch has a direct spray from any direction for any basket makeing loading a little less needy.
And, last but not least, the most intensive cycle for the Bosch is far more extensive compared to the DD, yet due sensor guidance never uses more then needed.
By energy label, the Bosch model you consider uses about the same as the double drawer model you are considering while fitting 2 more standard plate settings.
Both are simmilar in noise level and most other performance metrics.
But, what it really comes down to IMO is how you could see yourself using the machine.
If you think that on a normal day with no out-of-order kitchen activity you would regularly fill your current DW once with neither much space to spare in the machine nor any constraints because the machine is full, I would. probably go with the Bosch.
The third rack frees up enough space in the bottom basket to comfortably fit a days worth of dishes for your average family.
With these Bosches loading in slight layers (like tilting a bowl over a row of plates) and pretty tightly (there is verry little space between normal flat plates when fully loaded compared to other designs, but with these machines, the rule is that as long as water can get to all the surfaces of a normaly soiled item, it usually will get clean; baked on soils are the largest exceptions here) is no issue at all.
As long as you make sure that your cups and glasses still fit in the machine with the third rack in place and the middle rack adjusted so that your normal plates still fit in the lower rack, capacity is amazing.
But there have been complaints by some people that either their plates didn't fit the tines or that their glasses would interfer with the third rack or such which can greatly impact the use you can get out of the machine.
The cycle and option selection is perfect for such use cases.
On a day to day basis, you probably would use the Auto cycle with maybe the extra dry or sanitize option. That should clean even the fullest loads of daily dishes in 2h or there abouts while using typicly 4gal in a 3 or 4 fill cycle (wash rinse final rinse with an optional prewash determined by the soil sensor).
On days where things are less orderly, the half load option allows to run partial loads relatively efficently, the Speed 60 cycle is perfect for cleanup after cooking prep or bakeing and even baking trays could go in the DW with the upper rack removed and the tall item sprinkler used.
And even if the dishes should sit for a day or two, the DW will adapt to it and if you don't trust that, you just add the Extra Scrub options.
The DD would make much more sense as a meal-to-meal, occassion to occassion DW.
It does lack a soil sensor and the cycles appear to be less powerfull.
But if dishes never collect over the course of the day, that isn't even a problem.
A single drawer of the DD has rated capacity of 7 standard plate settings.
This means a medium sized family fills up a single drawer with each meal.
So after breakfast, a drawer might be full, so you run that.
For dinner, you might have more pots and pans, thus you run one drawer with plates and such and one drawer with pots and pans.
When bakeing, just run a drawer with all the utensils you used.
That was the idea of the DD from the beginning: No bulk dishwashing, but dishwashing whenever you needed it.
That's why it has less intensive, shorter cycles: Dishes never have time to dry in and there never are many dishes per cycle.
That is also where the DD becomes far more efficent then any normal DW could ever be: If you run lots of partial loads several times a day with lots of odd bits and pieces, the DD can save a lot of resources and time.
Sure you trade in some loading possibilities a large single tub machine would offer, but gain others.
Mainly, anything larger then 11" is basicly a no-go.
But otherwise, you can run a load completly made of cups and glasses, or a load purely of bowls, or a typical mixed load of a meal with some cuttlery in the cuttlery basket in on corner, glasses besides that, plates next to that and then some serving items in the free spaces.
The cycles offer different choices of wash temperature and number of post wash rinses that always do exactly what you want them to do.
Options allow for a quicker version of the main cycles, sanitizing or additional drying.
So, to put it short (all IMO):
Do you usually run one really full load a day with only the odd additional load here and there?
Then go with the Bosch.
Do you run the dishwasher often multiple times a day simply because you have so many dishes that make up loads that differ widely meal by meal or even hour by hour?
The get the DishDrawer.
|Post# 1019942 , Reply# 4   1/3/2019 at 05:59 by Easyspindry (Winston-Salem, NC)  || |
. . . double dish drawer for 12 or 13 years with one service call. I love them.
Instead of waiting for a larger dishwasher to get full before running, I use my F&P all the time. Therefore whenever I need something for cooking or eating, it's always clean and ready for use. If I had to replace mine, I would be hard pressed to not get another F&P dish drawer.
|Post# 1019943 , Reply# 5   1/3/2019 at 06:05 by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan)  || |
That's a really good explanation of the differences!
|Post# 1019953 , Reply# 6   1/3/2019 at 07:49 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)  || |
The DD model TomDawg cited is a "Tall" model. The upper drawer (or maybe both?) is deeper. Specifications state 12-1/4" plates. There's also a specific Sanitize option. DishDrawers always heat the water to specific temps for the main wash and final rinse (target varies per the selected cycle), extending cycle time as needed.
Mine is 15+ years. Older models had more water changes during the cycle. Several cycles on mine have prewashes. My Heavy cycle has seven water changes (prewash, rinse, rinse, wash, rinse, rinse, rinse), and heats to 150°F for the main wash, 163°F for the final rinse.
They reduced the number of water changes on newer models to meet the more stringent water/energy factors.
|Post# 1019955 , Reply# 7   1/3/2019 at 08:38 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)  || |
I had a 2003 model that came with a brand new house....given a choice, I would have had two double drawers, one on each side of the sink....but honestly, a dishdrawer on one side, and a full size dishwasher on the other is more practical...
the top drawer seem to get favored because of the simplicity of quick loading....
replaced the motor/impellor once....not even a 10 minute job...
upgraded to the newer lids, which now flex if a dish is too tall.....
some newer models offered a sort of top sprayer, but not really needed...
if one unit does break, you still have a backup, if you have to wait for parts or service....
easy to service, as you can pull out one unit at a time, without having to pull the whole box unit out...
one thing I liked about F&P....you may have a 2003 model, and run into an issue several years later, the newer design fit the older machine....for example, there is a plastic rod that retracts the hoses, which may snap....the issue has been corrected on newer models, and this correction will fit the older models...same for the lids...
the only time I seen a DD leak, was whoever installed it, could not attach it to the granite counter, so drilled holes in the side....right through the arms that pull the lid down....lids can't close, leaks can happen...
I installed a Bosch for my brother....many unique features....his offers a Top Rack only wash, and the top rack can be removed for tall pans....all stainless, very durable.....
since your building a new house....is it possible to make a few changes and install both?......you would really have the best of both worlds....and if you cook or entertain a lot, it would be a godsend...
note too.....both of these machines offer a leak detector, the machine will stop, drain and shut off before any major damage occurs...
|Post# 1019991 , Reply# 8   1/3/2019 at 14:24 by LowEfficiency (Iowa)  || |
I'd second both!
We had a similar dilemma a few years back. The older Bosch that came with our house worked well, but we found out that it was on the recall list (control panel fires), so we had to do something. As part of the recall, they would either provide the fixes/updates for free, or give us (I belive) half-off of a brand new Bosch unit. The older Bosch cleaned very well, but was middle-of-the-line with only two racks, and didn't quite match the other appliances, so we decided it was a good time to upgrade.
It was between a new Bosch and the F&P DishDrawers... and we ended up with a 3-rack 800-series Bosch due to the flexibility to hold larger items, and our opportunity to get it at a good price. Couldn't be happier with the purchase - it's super quiet, and the "auto" setting washes beautifully without any guesswork, as does the express setting when we need it.
But that being said, there are plenty of times when the pair of smaller capacity units, or even just additional capacity, would be beneficial - and I could see a single DishDrawer being a perfect complement to a full-size Bosch.
|Post# 1020004 , Reply# 9   1/3/2019 at 17:24 by appnut (TX)  || |
Tom, what settings are you using to yield 4.5 hours? And what's your water heart set at? I have a KitchenAid-produced Kenmore Elite. The only way I can approach that length is if I use the AutoClean or Pots & Pans cycle with Sani-Rinse Temp; Target Clean (Turbo Zone) and Heated Dry. My water heater is set at 120 degrees And I'm the originator of the term BobLoad and I don't rinse and barely scrape.
|Post# 1020010 , Reply# 10   1/3/2019 at 17:39 by Whatsername (Loveland, CO)  || |
See my thread here about the F&P for some good responses. I've had the double Tall model almost a year now and it's still great, I find it holds a ton of dishes in the top drawer alone; I use the bottom drawer only when I'm really cooking up a storm.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO Whatsername's LINK
|Post# 1020011 , Reply# 11   1/3/2019 at 17:43 by fisherpaykel (BC Canada)  || |
You can guess my first thought on DW recommendation but I agree with Yogitunes logical suggestion of both. Aside from putting large baking trays etc in the Bosch or hopefully a large single sink you may find that easy one step opening of a DishDrawer to load glasses, cups, cutlery and plates rather than pulling out 3 racks makes it your go to machine for everyday dishes. My DD are also about 13 years old and no service call. If you have not decided on other appliances take a look at F&P's, they are filled with logical convenience features, I have their laundry and refrigerator as well, happy with all. Take your time and enjoy the new house planning.
|Post# 1020034 , Reply# 12   1/3/2019 at 21:28 by tomdawg (Des moines)  || |
Appnut, I currently use heavy with most options on, sometimes i turn on the turbo zone if I have something back there.. I will say, turbo zone is pretty impressive. I started using the 1 hour cycle at first and worked my way up to the heaviest setting. maybe im just picky.
I have never thought of two on each side, great idea.. problem is, im trying to buy one that is to be discounted floor model and all they have is the double DD :/
|Post# 1020037 , Reply# 13   1/3/2019 at 21:49 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)  || |
There's also the 36" DishDrawer Wide (and Tall) (available only in single-drawer models) that takes a double-row of plates, or whatever else one may want to load. It, of course, requires non-standard cabinetry dimensions for installation. I've seen two of those installed to either side of a kitchen sink.
|Post# 1020064 , Reply# 14   1/4/2019 at 05:24 by appnut (TX)  || |
Tom, if you are basing cycle length on what the time display shows when you push start, it's deceiving. If you're using the Sani-Rinse option, I have found that by the end of the cycle, it's 1/2 an hour less time that what showed on the display. If opting for sani-rinse as well as heated dry, with today's energy standard, the time for heated dry isn't worth the time investment. When sani-rinse option is use, heated dry the element only comes on for a couple of minutes every 7 minutes. I've also found with sani--rinse, things dry as good, if not better with the residual heat and not using the time for heated dry. My dishwasher also has a little fan that comes on after dry cycle has been on for about 209 minutes and keeps running for an hour after cycle is complete. Early on, I found out the little fan never comes on when sani-rinse and even the extra dry option is used. I can choose a heated dry of either 50 minute of 1:29 minute.