Thread Number: 79040  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
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Post# 1029870   4/14/2019 at 18:25 (455 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

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Right now I'm shopping for a new dishwasher. I've got my choices down to a Maytag MDB4949 and a Whirlpool WDT750. If you have any suggestions throw them in there too. I'm intrigued by the new tech of the total coverage spray arm and just as intrigued to go back to a chopper system as I am also a fan of old school tech as I have a 2017 speed queen TL washer.

My last DW was a Kitchenaid kdte104ess1. It had the x style lower spray arm and did a great job while it worked. However it only lasted 3 years. Not sure if it was up to the task of washing a full load every single day.

which one do you like best? What are some positives and negatives of both? My preference is for a workhorse that cleans well. I scrape and run each plate under the faucet. I donít really care about wash times as I start my load at the end of the night.

Thanks for your input.

Post# 1029871 , Reply# 1   4/14/2019 at 18:44 (455 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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scraping and rinsing each plate under the faucet may be your downfall for any new machine you get...

today detergents work on food particles, if there is not sufficient food to work on, then the chemical will go after the machine....wearing out racks and parts way too soon....

sounds odd, but this is whats happening....

some machines also use an Auto-Wash sensor type of system...if no food particles are noted, it may think the machine is empty and jump into one or two rinses and shut down....

even your dishwasher is now catching up from the SMART phone age!

Post# 1029876 , Reply# 2   4/14/2019 at 19:10 (455 days old) by coldspot66 (Plymouth, Mass)        

The Maytag dw has a chopper and no filter to clean. The whirlpool dw has the global wash system that alterates wash arms and has a troublesome actuator motor. The Kenmore Elite higher models have the micro clean wash system. No filter to clean, but does have the actuator. You can also wash top rack only or bottom rack only. Hope this helps.

Post# 1029880 , Reply# 3   4/14/2019 at 19:34 (455 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Most Relible New DW

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I second what John Said in reply #2, GET the Maytag, not only do you not have to clean a filter but it also has a simpler water system and a bigger motor.


John L.

Post# 1029889 , Reply# 4   4/14/2019 at 20:51 (455 days old) by nerdvana (Portland, OR)        

My feelings on this matter are strong enough to have compelled me to create an account in order to post this reply! From my experience, I would strongly advise against the MDB4949. We replaced ours in less than a year, because we were so fed up with it! Inside that year, we had to have the wash motor replaced to boot.

Any cycle shorter than PowerBlast + Sanitize (at 3h48m total time, without Heated Dry) was guaranteed to leave behind even the simplest deposits (and don't get me started on dried ketchup or melted cheese). Even when running that super long cycle, which I've heard consumes over 10 gallons of water, we would still end up with redeposit soil on the *inside* of tumblers and mugs.

I was also fooled by the "most powerful motor" claim--when the replacement motor came in, turns out it's rated at the same 1/6 HP as all the rest of the Whirlpool-manufactured machines, it just appears to be connected to a slightly larger impeller.

We ended up moving to the GE PDT845 when they went on deep discount for pre-Black Friday. The bottle jets were a driving force in that decision, and while they do work splendidly, it makes for kind of a strange configuration on the rest of the top rack--there is one row of tines that won't really fit anything but cooking utensils, even Corelle coffee mugs are too wide! Speaking of Corelle and racks, I have actually gone off and carefully bent the tines (of a $1,000+ dishwasher) on the front row of the lower rack about 7-10 degrees to the left, in order to allow a full batch of cereal bowls to fit properly without nesting. (The manual says bowls go on the right of the upper rack, which is impossible if you're using the bottle jets; they share the same physical space.) It also struggles a bit with redeposit, unless we treat the (admittedly easy-to-access) filter like the lint filter in the clothes dryer, and rinse it after each load. If your diet is heavy on beans, this will drive you crazy, as bean fiber is just the worst for it!

I have no experience with the recent Whirlpool-branded machines, but my instinct would be to shy away from that TotalCoverage spray arm. It looks like a lot of moving parts interacting in rather precise ways, in a relatively harsh environment. This is the same logic that steered me away from the LG QuadWash. The GE reversible lower arm uses a passive diverter, and the motor will stop/start to increment it from one outlet to the next.

All told, I would almost go back to our original (pre-Orbit) Frigidaire which had the most usable rack space and layout, alternated spray arms by reversing its motor rotation, and produced consistently immaculate dishes because it ran a brief fill during each drain cycle to rinse debris off the filter! Four motors shredding their bearings over the course of six years, though, still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Post# 1029896 , Reply# 5   4/14/2019 at 21:46 (455 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Maytag MDB4949 DW

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Hi Nerdvana, sorry you had a bad experience with this DW, but it sounds like you don't do too well with other DWs either.


We are a dealer and have sold over 400 MT DWs of this design and have had NO cleaning complaints and very few problems, here and there some users don't like the rack design, but all DW manufactures have complaints about rack design, this is an area where it is very hard to please everyone.


You are wrong about all WP built DWs having a 1/6 HP motor, WP DWs used to have a 1/5 or 1/6 HP motor in the point Voyager models but they have been gone for over 6 years. The TOL Kitchenaid DWs with the grinder system also have a 1/6 HP motor, but no WP has had anything close to this in over 6 years.


MT and TOL KA DWs have by far the largest and most powerful motors of any home DW in the world currently.



Post# 1029900 , Reply# 6   4/14/2019 at 22:24 (455 days old) by nerdvana (Portland, OR)        

Thanks John, I stand corrected on the motor specs--typical pumps out there nowadays aren't even rated in HP anymore, are they?! If I could talk to past me, I'd have ripped the MT RR out of my dad's house back in TX!

I guess the point I was getting at is that pretty much any selection one decides on is going to involve compromising on some aspect, and it's just a matter of figuring out which compromises have the least impact on their particular use case. I'm certainly not proselytizing the current TOL GE, either, but for my experience the MT was more disappointing than the lower-mid model FD it replaced.

We're all allowed to poke endless fun at the WaterWall, though, right? LOL

Post# 1029907 , Reply# 7   4/15/2019 at 00:07 (455 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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That's crazy about your bad Maytag experience. I have a Maytag (not sure of the model #) but it's from 2014 w stainless interior. It has been the best dishwasher I've ever had. Approaching 5 years old this summer.

Post# 1029909 , Reply# 8   4/15/2019 at 00:46 (455 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
Leaning toward Maytag

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Iím leaning toward the Maytag. I wish they wouldnít have changed the dispenser or the front panel on the most recent model, though. I liked the digital timer and physical buttons. I also started having issues with that same dispenser on my Kitchenaid. Are the internals (main board, motor, etc.) the same as the older 4949 design? I think I could benefit from the tiered upper rack to fit sports water bottles. I appreciate all the input Iíve received so far.

Post# 1029910 , Reply# 9   4/15/2019 at 00:48 (455 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

Well, I have never been happier with a dishwasher's performance than my KA KDTE254ESS, in the 18 months I've owned it I can think of 2 possibly 3 dishes that did not come out spotless.  I do not pre rinse, some will sit there for two or three days with egg or other food on them and they are spotless as is the silverware that I toss in any old way.  I only use Cascade products, Finish is OK, but something about it turns me off for whatever reason.


Love the ball bearing racks top and bottom and cleaning the filter is a minor thing every 4-6 weeks.  I am totally sold on the filter as the screen is so fine there are no particles of food sitting the the cups in the upper rack as every previous machine has had.  At 39dB it is almost silent, and outside of the longer run times that I have adjusted to, needed with todays detergents, I have no issues.

Post# 1029913 , Reply# 10   4/15/2019 at 03:33 (455 days old) by nerdvana (Portland, OR)        


I hadn't even noticed the control panel redesign when peeking at the Maytag site--their banner images all still show the model I had! I suspect a focus group may have suggested that the generic cycle progress indicators were less "offensive?" than a readout telling us, "I'll be done sometime early tomorrow morning..."

One thing I did remember after making my initial post is that the top rack always felt "too high" and we did have clearance issues with some taller water bottles. As it stands, only the right-most set of tines would hold the "Thermos Intak" bottles we eventually standardized on. To do it over again, though, I would definitely make the upgrade to the adjustable rack (since the "adjusted" position is downward in relation to the 4949's fixed rack). I would argue that before spending the amounts of money that we're discussing here, there's nothing wrong with hauling a set of YOUR dishes to the local store and double-check that they'll all fit as you'd like! That process and the aforementioned water bottles is actually what struck the LG from consideration in my last round of purchasing decisions.

I truly did appreciate not having to mess around with filters (monthly /or/ every-load) and the simplicity of the water circuit will likely mean less to go wrong over the coming years (diverters, actuators, and such).

Post# 1029916 , Reply# 11   4/15/2019 at 03:55 (455 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Maytag states that their dishwasher motor is the most powerful motor on the market among leading brands. But how powerful is that motor actually? I can't find anything about that on their website. I guess it's a secret.

Post# 1029920 , Reply# 12   4/15/2019 at 07:19 (454 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
Upper rack

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Nerdvana, does the low side of the upper rack allow for taller bottles that a normal rack couldn't or is it the normal size that a rack should be and the high side is just shorter?

Post# 1029923 , Reply# 13   4/15/2019 at 07:54 (454 days old) by Combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Whirlpool built dishwasher Main motors

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Here are some pictures of the rating plates of three different motors used on whirlpool dishwashers in the last couple of years thereís probably at least five or six total different motors but here are three popular ones.

You can see how much larger the motor is out of the Maytag itís 202 W versus 55 W and 37 W for the other two itís considerably larger and heavier itís also continuous duty youíll notice the other motors can only run for 20-22 minutes and then they have to rest for 10 minutes, LOL

The Maytag is the only one that has a horsepower rating itís rated at .18 which is somewhere between one 1/5 and1/6 hp.

The major problem with having such low horsepower motors in the dishwasher is that the water force is not strong enough to dislodge food particles between dishes if two things are touching, commercial dishwashers will never be built such a ridiculous manner.


  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 4         View Full Size
Post# 1029926 , Reply# 14   4/15/2019 at 09:09 (454 days old) by estesguy (kansas)        

Those 2 smaller motors look similar to the drain pump used in my 2007 GE washer, lol. Oh for the days of 1/3 to 1/2 HP motors used in the older MT and KA dishwashers. I'd gladly pay a few cents more to operate them, knowing they were up to the task. Wish I had my MT WU901 back now!

Post# 1029934 , Reply# 15   4/15/2019 at 11:25 (454 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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That looks like a decent dishwasher motor indeed. I wonder why they are so secretive about the wattage on the website.

Post# 1029948 , Reply# 16   4/15/2019 at 13:43 (454 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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I donít understand the whole 20min on, 10min off thing.
My KA with the 37watt motor will run for the whole 45 min wash and 45min rinse segments nonstop.
I know facts are inconvenient but that little 37 watt motor will often flip plastic containers in my KA.

The Johnson motors in GE machines are whiny little brushed DC motors that make nice little pile of carbon under the machine after a year or two.
Theyíre prone to leaking too, since theyíre not sealed wet rotor motors like on the WP machines.

Post# 1029955 , Reply# 17   4/15/2019 at 15:16 (454 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

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Made in China, Made in China...

What ever happened to this ???

  View Full Size
Post# 1029957 , Reply# 18   4/15/2019 at 15:43 (454 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

One thing I hate this nonsense more is better thinking.

More water moving with more wattage all at once is great at saving time but does nothing if used wrong.

I could make a verry non pg comment on how the biggest tools fail when put in the wrong hands, but I think the pick up truck for a city dweller is the best comparison here that I dare to make...

Dunno what Whirlpool is doing, but alternating sprayarms have been around over here for 30+ years probably and have been the norm for probably 20 years now.
And I can't even remember one case of an actuator failing.

Even we get along great with 100W motors.

And you have to consider that 202W motor has to drive twice the wash arms plus the disposer.
So, 70-90W per spray arm seems about in line what is common over here.

And honestly, by now, over here, variable speed pumps are getting close to becomming the norm straight up.

Nothing beats inverter technology for appliance drives in any application I can think of.

Post# 1029984 , Reply# 19   4/15/2019 at 19:29 (454 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
chopper system

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Do chopper systems need to be opened up every 6 mos or so to clean out or are they maintenance free? I really don't want 3 month old food stuck below where I can't see, water running through it, and recirculating on my clean dishes. One thing I did like about my filer system was, any food that was left behind was visible above the filter. Anything that got through the filter simply got flushed out.

Post# 1029987 , Reply# 20   4/15/2019 at 20:07 (454 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor)        

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There is no way I would ever buy any appliance thats not dial operated and NO electronics. My 25 years old stuff still works just fine turning a dial. I dont want a china and crystal setting or pots and pans. I just want a few days worth of dishes to get clean on regular wash. I do rinse dishes before loading, old habit.

This post was last edited 04/15/2019 at 20:29
Post# 1030029 , Reply# 21   4/16/2019 at 06:54 (453 days old) by nerdvana (Portland, OR)        

I've just measured our water bottles at 3" overall dia (2.5" at the neck) and 8.5" tall without the lid.

With the lip of the bottles over the rightmost set of tines, I recall them rubbing against the top of the doorframe when the rack slid in and out. In fact, there was one position along that row where the bracket extends a fraction of an inch inside the rack, and that would push the bottle bottom high enough that it would actually *catch* the doorframe. I'm starting to have flashbacks here...

So yeah, I'd definitely say the right-hand side of the upper rack is normal-height, and the left-hand side is very shallow (presumably to allow room for taller items like baking sheets in the lower rack). Had we taken the jump to the two-rack model with an adjustable upper (79xx, I think?) it's very possible we'd still have it, the more I think about it. We wanted the countdown display, though--but that's a moot point with the redesigned panels. In fact, if those are capacitive (feather touch) buttons, you might specifically want the top-control model to avoid inadvertent activation when standing next to the counter! (My mother is forever turning her Bosch OVEN on when she leans against the island, as an example.)

Post# 1030033 , Reply# 22   4/16/2019 at 08:01 (453 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
Thoughts on Bosch?

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What do you all think about the Bosch 300 series? Thanks.

Post# 1030067 , Reply# 23   4/16/2019 at 14:38 (453 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

So far a lot of comments have been about Maytag or Whirlpool. Both of these are of Whirlpool design. Why not look into Bosch and see what they offer, it will at least be of a different thought process.

I have a DW with a filter(not a Bosh). There is no problem having to check it once a month or in my case every 40 days. It ends up that there is very little in it to worry about, and I never have crud on my dishes.

Post# 1030068 , Reply# 24   4/16/2019 at 14:44 (453 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Link to models


Post# 1030073 , Reply# 25   4/16/2019 at 16:16 (453 days old) by ThatRobGuy (Maine)        

We picked up a Bosch dishwasher about 2 years ago. I really like it. Dishes come out clean 99% of the time. Sometimes if there's something that is especially stuck on it doesn't do a good job at it, but that's generally from dried oatmeal or rice. I got around to cleaning the filter out for the first time last month, it took about 10 minutes from removal to install. Not a huge deal to do, and the only reason I even bothered is my husband was doing a lot of juicing and the dishwasher started to smell like whatever he was making.

Upsides: It is extremely quiet. Most of the time you don't hear much of anything. Occasionally you'll hear dishes clanking if they get put too close together. Fast wash works well for moderately dirty items, or things that need to just be quickly washed that have sat for a while.

Downsides: Cycles are long. Heavy duty, with sanitise, and extra dry will take nearly 3 hours. Regular cycle is about 2:15. It guzzles rinse aid. Our old Hot Point dishwasher probably used 12 oz of Finish every year, the Bosch uses about 12 oz per quarter. The HotPoint did have a heated dry. The fast cycle is fast, but the dishes are not dry when it is done washing.

Mild annoyances. The tines can be an issue the way that they're sloped. They don't just stick up like most do, so that can limit what fits in it.

Overall I like it. We usually run a cycle overnight, or when we leave for work, so the long cycles aren't an issue.

Post# 1030076 , Reply# 26   4/16/2019 at 16:49 (453 days old) by whatsername (Loveland, CO)        

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@thatrobguy have you set the rinse aid level? A Bosch I had a while back had something like 6 or 8 rinse aid settings and it came from the factory on the second highest level. If you haven't set it it could probably be dialed back quite a bit.

Post# 1030080 , Reply# 27   4/16/2019 at 17:11 (453 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

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I've always tried to stay true to Whilrlpool and their companies. I'm from Stevensville, Michigan and they built our area. Half our population was employed by them in some way or another. Everyone could afford to buy a home and there wasn't money problems to speak of. Growing up in the 80's in the Stevensville and St. Joe area in the heart of American made appliances (we had Zenith as well) was a life to behold. To be honest though, those days have gone. All that's left is the headquarters. Benton harbor has been abandoned and in the Stevensville/St. Joe area you rarely come across anyone that works for Whirlpool. I moved away in 2005 for work.

I haven't had luck with my last dishwashers from them and I'm going to give Bosch a go. I like the SHEM3AY56N. Going to purchase should be delivered 5/3.

Post# 1030123 , Reply# 28   4/17/2019 at 10:30 (452 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
User Manual

Before I buy anything I download the user manual to see how it works and find things I might or might not like. You can find the manual at A.J. Madison, or the Bsoch web site. I found it at Madison and have included the link. If it doesn't work you can go to A.J. Madison and search for the model number.

The user manual PDF link is near the end of the page.


Post# 1030137 , Reply# 29   4/17/2019 at 15:54 (452 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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I think we need to get Johnny into a vintage Kitchen Aid

once he sees the cleaning power from a hurricane in a box, he wont ever turn back....

Post# 1030140 , Reply# 30   4/17/2019 at 16:45 (452 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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Not sure where the misinformation is coming from, but the smaller magnetic motors that Whirlpool and KitchenAid dishwashers use do NOT run for 20 minutes and sit for 10. Whoever thinks as such has clearly no actual experience using these machines. Once past the prewash, these machines donít pause at all through the entire main wash and final rinse portions. And I can verify with johnb300m after owning now a WP WDT920, KitchenAid KDFE104HBS, and a WP WDF520, that these things will absolutely flip lids and plastic containers in both racks, even the Whirlpool 520 that uses the same smaller motor but doesnít have a diverter valve and runs all arms at once.

Post# 1030143 , Reply# 31   4/17/2019 at 17:15 (452 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
I honestly miss you sometimes

It's funny.

That question has literally been settled dozens of times on here. Pictures, videos, what ever.
Even a backing dish literally oven backed just with cheese and other residues coming spotless (a test that by the way to this day not ONE of the people claiming these machines are junk even dared to try themselfes in one of their beloved old machines) is enough.

( Reply #26 onwards if you need any questions answered)

Some people just don't even try to look at facts and shout stuff around that has literally NO value to the discussions.

I don't care how many decades you do dishes or laundry, how you feel water levels and designs should be and how many thousands of machines you sold.

And when ever this discussion comes up or when murando531 shows up - or both in conjunction - the resignation of this fight hits me again like a freight train from my blind spot.

The Bosches are good and probably the most efficent option of the US market. Miele might be more efficent, but far more exoensive. These machines clean everything and never even use more then 5gal, with 3gal being more of an average value.

The WPs are cheaper and parts for them are far easier to get and you only trade minor efficency losses, noise and time increases for more US market optimized racks.

Post# 1030144 , Reply# 32   4/17/2019 at 17:21 (452 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
I honestly miss you sometimes

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Post# 1030147 , Reply# 33   4/17/2019 at 18:03 (452 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Andrew, I'm so glad you showed up.  I miss your contributions profoundly!!!

Post# 1030163 , Reply# 34   4/17/2019 at 23:18 (452 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
20 minutes on 10 minutes off

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Its a thermal duty cycle rating based an indefinite motor life. Because the machine is not designed with a 100 year life expectancy in mind nor will it run 24/7, it makes sense from a manufacturing standpoint to economize the most expansive parts.

In other words the motor is specified with a loss of life consideration around say 20-30 years (or what ever the engineers had in mind)- meaning the odds of burning out increase after that time period. This saves on copper and iron that would otherwise to to waste when the machine is eventually scrapped.

With the precision manufacturing quality of today, its possible to get a motor like that to outlast a machine a dozen times over when used within its rated duty cycle.

Post# 1030182 , Reply# 35   4/18/2019 at 07:17 (451 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Dishwasher Motor Life

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Thank You Chet, for the great explanation, You are very correct manufactures all designing things to be good enough rather than trying to build things that have motors that could outlast 5 DWs which we have gotten used to over the last decades, a failed main motor in a washer' or DW was a rare problem.


We are replacing a lot of these cheap intermittent duty motors on newer DWs, both the drain and main pump motors are failing much more often than before, Customers will repair many DWs once or even twice when the product is less than ten years old but after that the people willing to repair falls off and otherwise perfectly good DWs get scraped.



Post# 1030192 , Reply# 36   4/18/2019 at 09:07 (451 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        
Motor duty cycle

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Very interesting thank you!

I am flummoxed as to why the small magnetic motors would be failing so much.
Since they have no wound rotors. Maybe a single winding for the horseshoe stator, what is failing?
Is it really maybe the electronics used to control then that doesnít have that 30yr lifespan?

Post# 1030257 , Reply# 37   4/19/2019 at 09:17 (450 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

What technicly degrades in any motor is the coating on the wire. It's a thin polymer layer which - as any plastic - naturally ages.

There is of course close to 0 mechanical and UV caused aging, but thermal aging is a huge factor there.
Not only is there close to no ventilation but the pump naturally gets hot as the tub above it and the medium it transports are - in polymer technology world at least - hot enviroments.
Especially with heated drying that effect could be dramaticly increased.

That might also explain why the Maytag motor fails less often: If I am not mistaken, that should be a more typical motor design with partly exposed windings.

Maybe that is why EU DW seem to be better durability wise.
By now basicly every DW runs on cold as the savings - especially on typical house water line runs here - are close to nill.
And cold fills cool the pumps and temperature spikes are reached and kept in a verry short amount of time with our uber powerfull 2kw flow through heaters.

Post# 1030267 , Reply# 38   4/19/2019 at 12:33 (450 days old) by 48bencix (Sacramento CA)        
I really like this Maytag

You may want to look into Maytag MDB8989SHZ. I really like this unit because it has the built in grinder with no filter and also the Premium ball-bearing rack glides.

"Our premium ball-bearing rack glides give the upper rack a glide so smooth you can pull it out even when you're hauling an armload of bowls, or when the rack's lugging your heaviest dishes and baking pans."

The ball bearing rack glides are on the upper rack and were available only on the Kitchen Aid dishwashers.

This unit is more expensive than the other Maytag but those units have had complaints about the racks. $749.99 at Best Buy.

I know a lot of users say the filters do not need that much maintenance, but I do not understand why any manufacturers use them if they do not have to. I really like the upper end Kitchen Aid units with the clean water system and no filters, but they are a lot more expensive. I just think that if I know there is any food down in there rotting away, I will want to get it out. Also I tried to remove one of the filters in the showroom and cut my hand on some piece of sharp plastic. Plus they are really hard to reach.

Right now this is my choice for a new Dishwasher.


Post# 1030271 , Reply# 39   4/19/2019 at 12:49 (450 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
Cut your hand on a sharp piece of plastic

Like, what?

I had many filters in my hand, none had any sharp edges.
Especially as we are talking DW, if you cut your hand on the machine, I would not trust you unloading knifes...

And yeah, if there is food down there you would want to get it out there.

That is why the filters are removeable.

Unlike on machines with grinders, where you have to disassemble quite a bit to even get close to the sharp blade by which you most definetly are more likely to get cut then by a plastic and metal screen filter.

Are you even listening to yourself sometimes?

If I throw 750$ at a DW I'd throw it at a Bosch.

Quieter, more options, better sensing and perhaps even a variable speed pump.

Post# 1030297 , Reply# 40   4/19/2019 at 18:20 (450 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
DWs With Grinders

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NONE ever require cleaning, and none are able to be cleaned by the consumer, because they NEVER need cleaning, the only food ever left in a DW with a chopper is what you see laying in the bottom of the DW.


You are not able to get your fingers near any sharp blades for two reasons, They don't have sharp blades and two you have to disassemble the pump assembly to get to them.


Show me one owners manual that tells you how to take a DW apart to clean the chopper or any part of the pump of a DW that has a chopper.


We are supposed to be appliance professionals here, listing to this crap over and over again makes me think I an listing to Sara Sanders at a WH briefing, LOL



Post# 1030315 , Reply# 41   4/19/2019 at 22:52 (450 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

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What sold me on the Bosch SHEM3AY56N was the amount of water/minute it uses is more than even Mattag MDB4949 , the rinse cycle gets the water hottest at 162, it also had the shortest heavy duty max cycle time of any of the other washers by a fairly large margin. The pump assemblies are also all the same motors from their 800 series line on down. The real test will be real world cleaning, so I'm not getting my hopes up until I run a load and I'm not going to be totally gung-ho on Bosch until I at least get to that 5 year mark, but it looks promising.

Post# 1030339 , Reply# 42   4/20/2019 at 12:54 (449 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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you guys do realize if the machine contains a food grinder...its a "SOFT FOOD" grinder....

it's not a WOOD CHIPPER!

the machines I have seen with filters you had to clean, was an extra benefit for particles that could damage the broken glass...

I don't pre-rinse.....just scrape off the big stuff, and toss it in, even if it has to sit for a day or two....but that's all part in seeing what my UltraWash can handle...

Post# 1030360 , Reply# 43   4/20/2019 at 16:46 (449 days old) by good-shepherd (New Jersey)        
it's not a WOOD CHIPPER!


Post# 1030363 , Reply# 44   4/20/2019 at 18:01 (449 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

Was about to say that you better never drop a toothpick, cherry pit, olive stone or shard of glass in there.

Really, there are tons of videos of people takeing there DW apart because they don't clean well anymore and show the grinders all gunked up...

What is really bizar is that grinders in WP designs use the grinders to mash any soft food into a slurry that goes onto an accumulator screen that is then cleaned by a backflow during draining if I am not mistaken.
And people love them.

Filters are accumulator screens that are cleaned by bachflow during draining.
And people hate them.

Only difference: You can't drop pasta in the DW and have it disappear, you either have to scrape away such residue or remove it from the filter after it was bathed in 140F water for several hours...

Post# 1030389 , Reply# 45   4/20/2019 at 23:14 (449 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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well they use the word 'grinder'....but in reality its more of a pulverizer/macerator....

but lets have some fun with this.....a little magic I have done this several times.....

bake and frost a chocolate cake, place in dishwasher...we'll even give you the benefit of doubt, use the Heavy Cycle, at the end, the cake should be gone, and the plate spotless!

I also like JohnL's test of a dried up ketchup bottle in a dishwasher....

share your results!...or even your own test

Post# 1030393 , Reply# 46   4/21/2019 at 03:02 (449 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

My previous DW was a GE with a "pulverizer" or so called grinder.  Soft food, fine anything else not so fine.  There was a good sized filter above it that stopped most large hard stuff from getting in, I still needed to clean the DW by hand from time to time - a harder chore than with my new KA filter style machine.  With it all the "gunk" is consolidated in one area, quick easy clean out.


My KA has the ball bearing racks upper and lower and I have to say I love them.  Easy in and out, no hang ups. 


As I stated before, I've had a lot of dishwashers over the years, among them  a mid 70's KA Superba later replace by the GE 2700 and none compare to the cleaning ability of my latest KA.  I have one of the older Whirlpool "Hurricane in a box" DWs down the basement for odds and end clean up, while it will blast just about anything clean, on more than one occasion it has broken stuff with the waters force moving it around - one year I put the frosted glass chimneys from my exterior lights in it and it blasted the frosting off the glass - a little cleaner than I wanted.


All in all I'll take my new KA over any of the others.

Post# 1030394 , Reply# 47   4/21/2019 at 04:57 (449 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

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The grinder on WP talltub (Point Voyager) models is more of a blender-type mechanism.

Pic 1) The blade doesn't contact the screen to grind against it (that'd cause an increased noise level and wear on both the blade and screen).† The blade whirls in the space to chop food chunks into bits small enough to pass through the screen into the soil separator.

Pic 2) The screen can get clogged with debris.† The example pic says "lint & hair" but paper labels, plastic wrap, and fibrous food residue can also get stuck there.

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Post# 1030423 , Reply# 48   4/21/2019 at 11:56 (448 days old) by 48bencix (Sacramento CA)        
Sears Kenmore Ultra Wash

My current Dishwasher is a 2000 Kenmore Ultra Wash. I think the main thing about this type of dishwasher is that there is a filter in the system and it is backflushed with a purge cycle. I do rinse all of the plates and other items so I am not counting on the grinding aspect. The other newer dishwashers such as Maytag and Kitchenaid have systems that do a similar thing. In some ways it is similar to self cleaning filters that some Whirlpool and Kenmore washing machines had.

Other dishwashers that I have had had neither self-cleaning or any type of filters. They just used many wash and many more rinses to remove all of the food particles. Of course those machines had powerful motors and sprays to dislodge the food. Mostly they worked well but not as well as a dishwasher with a filter, self-cleaning or not.

So when looking for a dishwasher I tend to want the convenience that I have always had. The Ultra Wash has never had any problems and I probably will keep using it until it fails. The racks are vinyl coated and show some rust. Also the knob timer is quite audible. But it still works well and has a pretty short cycle. Water usage is reasonable but not as low as newer units. Most likely the purge backflow system will be discontinued because it does use some extra water.

Post# 1030449 , Reply# 49   4/21/2019 at 15:56 (448 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
1 hour wash

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Does anyone know the details on the 1 hour wash cycle for the Kenmore Ultrawash 13229? The manual states that it uses more water and energy. Water was at 7.9 gallons, but what are the wash and rinse temps? Also, does it still use the diverter? Thanks.

Post# 1030455 , Reply# 50   4/21/2019 at 16:39 (448 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

As far as I understand the WP diverter design has no position that operates all arms at once.
You wouldn't want to anyway as this machine should use a single speed motor and can't compensate for the needed increase in flowrate to maintain pressure which you really want in a quick cycle.

The basic operating principle is to use several really short pre-rinses to purge lines and prewarm dishes and remove as much dirt as possible so the verry short main wash is as quickly as possible as hot as possible and can remove the pretty well presoaked residues.
The diverter will switch pretty frequently.

Interim rinse(es) follow the same pattern so the final rinse can be as hot as possible as soon as possible.

The heater is basicly on the entire time and there is no load size or soil sensing.
Just max fills and timed cycle steps.
And I assume there are only temp maximums set and those are probably pinned pretty high (around high temp settings).

Drying is shortend to ommited under the assumption you would open the door pretty soon after the cycle ends and dishes would basicly flashdry instantly.

Fun fact there: Mieles Solar Eco cycle that skips any heating uses about the same amount of water as the Whirlpool one hour wash and assuming both machines need about the same per fill on could guess that the Whirlpool would run a simmilar fill pattern:
Maybe changing a prewash for an additional interim rinse so the final rinse has better purged lines to work with.

I know that on Bosches version of this the spray pressure is pinned to max and every cycle step including interim rinses are heated.
That only does 3 or 4 fills though, temps for mainwadh being 120F and rinse 160F IIRC.

Miele has 149F mainwash and 140F final rinse listed with 3 fills only though.

In the EU on cold fill Bosches and Mieles approach are both remarkebly simmilar: 65C mainwash (presumably max pressure), interim rinse (presumably heated), final rinse (65C Miele vs 70C Bosch, 150F vs 160F), short dry, done.
Both use about the same amount of water (10l Bosch vs 10,5l Miele, 2.6gal vs 2.8gal).

Bosches VarioSpeed+ cuts the Eco cycle to 1:05 with a simmilar pattern, the Auto with Speed now adds a prewash adding about 14min IIRC.
Funny enough, half load is combineable with Speed cutting Eco by a few minutes only adjusting for shorter heating times and cutting Auto down to Eco basicly.
You can still ad lower rack intensive still adding 5min and sanitizing still adding 15min IIRC.

I'll check that tommorow before driving back up north...

Post# 1030459 , Reply# 51   4/21/2019 at 16:57 (448 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
Great Info

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Thanks Henene! Great info there! I greatly appreciate it.

Post# 1030460 , Reply# 52   4/21/2019 at 17:06 (448 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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I have a 4-year old Kenmore Elite with the 1-hour Expr4ess wash cycle.  It uses temp from water heater.  It's a prewash, rinse, main wash that's about 18 minutes long, a 1st post-wash rinse that's about 6 minutes long and the final rinse is 22-24 minutes long.  The heating element is energize during the whole cycle.  How do I know this?  Once I had to interrupt the cycle during the prewash.  I heard water sizzling on the heating element as everything was dripping (a sound I don't normally hear).  The interior tempera4ture probably gets to around 125 to 130 degrees.  the final rinse is so long that water temp most likely would reach at least 140 degrees.  When cycle is finished, I open door and let everything flash dry usually.  And the rate it "dries" is about as quick as when it's flash-dried from a normal cycle.  

Post# 1030468 , Reply# 53   4/21/2019 at 17:39 (448 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
Heated dry

I red heated dry is avaible on that cycle. How much time does that add?

If you would be worried about decent heat exposure for bacteria reduction purposes I would think heated dry could help with that aswell.

Post# 1030469 , Reply# 54   4/21/2019 at 17:39 (448 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Henrik, the user manual for this particular dishwasher says it has a variable speed motor.  


Henrik, the basic heated dry adds 35 minutes on mine.  

Post# 1030470 , Reply# 55   4/21/2019 at 17:47 (448 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
You're right Bob, thanks!

Totally skipped over that.

Am surprised to find that at that price point with a WP DW TBH but if used correctly it is an amazing add on.
And it dosen't have the weired drainpump-esque motor!

So the 1h wash will just blast away at max I presume, so a little more noise but great results.

And with 35min of heated dry the interior should get quite balmy for sure!

Post# 1030471 , Reply# 56   4/21/2019 at 17:53 (448 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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My 1-hour wash can take off 4 day old oatmeal on bowls and my water heater is set at 120.  I put the bowls in the bottom rack and use Cascade Platinum with Cascade Complete in prewash.  

Post# 1030505 , Reply# 57   4/21/2019 at 22:43 (448 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

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I was set on the Bosch, but the Kenmore with the PowerWave spray arm coupled with 7.9 gal of water in 1 hour and an extra dry option is very intriguing. I know that Andrew has raved about the TotalCoverage/PowerWave spray arm in previous posts. From what I've read, it looks like it uses a gear system to allow water to pass through different holes of the spray arm at different intervals to increase coverage and power.

I will be set to purchase on 4/30 and hopefully have a unit by 5/3. I guess it's something to think about until then.

I appreciate all the input. I have definitely learned a lot in the last week.

Post# 1030557 , Reply# 58   4/22/2019 at 16:37 (447 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Reply # 47

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Hi Glenn, I am really surprised that you posted this crap, The clogged grinder plate is only clogged because the drive for the grinder is stripped out.


We have serviced hundreds of WP built point voyager DWs and there is never a single particle of stuff on that grinder plate,


We have also seen dozens of clogged grinder plates like the one in the stupid video that were clogged, the solution is not cleaning the plate but instead REPLACING the broken wash impeller and or broken drive ,If you just clean it it will be clogged in one or two cycles.


Glenn You are usually one of the few people on this site that never get things wrong.


John L.

Post# 1030558 , Reply# 59   4/22/2019 at 16:52 (447 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
DWs With Grinders

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For the record, The WP standard tub Power Clean DWs, Will grind up tooth pikes, small pieces of broken glass, one foot long spaghetti noodles, small bone pieces, cherry pits, pop corn kernels and about any vegetable pieces that are soft enough to be pulled in or small enough if they are hard to get into the grinder area.


The most frequent service calls we are doing on DWs with filters are broken glass in drain pumps and in the main pump as well, This is mainly on Bosch and WP built DWs with filters.


While the filter does in theory keep hard items out of the pumps the problem is when the user goes to remove the filter for cleaning, the little pieces of broken glass slip into the drain pump or main pump inlets and then its a $100-150 service call or more if it ruins either of the pumps.


With the above mentioned WP PC DWs the only thing that ever stops them is and aluminum screw that floats over the trap and gets into the grinder, this will result into a $150 repair.


John L.

Post# 1030602 , Reply# 60   4/23/2019 at 05:30 (447 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

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John:† A moment of weakness, apparently.† We all have them.† :-/† Thanks for the clarification and compliment.† :-)

Last PV unit I checked, my aunt's KA, had a bit of paper on the plate (maybe from a jar label) and some bits of rust in the sump from rack deterioration.

Post# 1032845 , Reply# 61   5/16/2019 at 23:17 (423 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
I got my dishwasher!

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First, I just want to thank everyone that took the time to give their input and experience. It was greatly appreciated and I learned a lot from this discussion. It's great to have a forum like this to share experiences with people all around the world who share a love for appliances as much as I do.

For me it came down to the Bosch 100 Series SHEM3AY56N and the Kenmore Ultra Wash PowerWave 13229. Both had similar price points. The Bosch right around $450 and the Kenmore right around $450 as well (after the Sears sale and using a $35 off coupon code). Sears also had an extra bonus of $150 worth of rewards points paid back in 10 monthly installments, which I can use to buy vacuum bags. So, after all said and done the Kenmore would end up coming in at $300.

Both offered a stainless tub, but the Bosch had a plastic bottom, while the Kenmore was completely stainless. Whether or not an extra 25% of stainless steel would make a difference with drying, I'm not sure, but stainless does retain heat better. Having a stainless bottom should in theory do a better job of keeping the water hot and heating the water faster.

I really liked Bosch's bottom rack. It seemed very organized. I took my plates, bowls, and cups down to Lowes to see how everything would fit. The Bosch had a place for large plates, another for small bowls, another for small plates, and I could fit a few big bowls in between. However, my family goes through a LOT of cups and the upper rack tines did not fit my needs. There was a spot for bowls and another row that was too small to fit cups. On my previous dishwasher (a Kitchenaid), I would use all 5 rows most of the time. While the Kenmore's middle rack was designed for small bowls it wasn't too wide and I could fit wide cups in there and they wouldn't move around too much. So, overall, the Kenmore rack was something that fit my family needs a lot better.

Speaking of cups, some of my cups have extra concave bottoms and the Boschís lack of a top spray arm had me questioning whether debris pooling on the bottom of cups was something that could end up being a problem.

I really love a front panel countdown display with actual buttons, which both supplied, but the Kenmore's buttons just seemed more sturdy. While the outside round buttons felt strong on the Bosch, the rectangular buttons closest to the timer felt flimsy to me. I questioned whether that would be a problem down the line with buttons popping off.

According to the parts manual, the Bosch had the same pump motors as the 800 models! I'm sure the water pressure would be good (as Iíve seen in dishwasher videos of the 800). However, after watching a video inside a Kenmore with a PowerWave spray arm and Andrew's video of his Total Coverage arm, I was simply blown away by the water pressure. A lot of times with a name like PowerWave I would think it was just a gimmick, but the PowerWave truly does live up to its name. It also helped that Andrew had raved about his Total Coverage spray arm as well.

The Bosch had the best overall cycle options in my opinion. It had the shortest timed heavy cycle. It also had the hottest wash and rinse. With all that good stuff from the Bosch, I just couldn't get over the PowerWave spray arm coupled with a 7.9 gal 1 hour wash cycle and a heated dry option. That's probably as close as one is going to get to old school wash.

As far as reliability, the truth is, I haven't had great luck with Whirlpool the last decade. My first Whirlpool lost it's pump and my recent KitchenAid lost it's main board. On the other hand, I was supposed to get a Bosch instead of the KitchenAid last time, but the Bosch came with a bad pump off the bat, so I got scared off and returned it for the KitchenAid.

Both the Bosch and Kenmore seemed like great washers, especially for their price, but it was one that stuck out to me a little more than the other as a better fit.

I chose the Kenmore Ultra Wash Powerwave 13229!

So, I purchased online from Sears on 4/30 and it was delivered on 5/4.

Here are some of the Pros and cons of the machine after use.


1. The 1 hour wash with heated dry option. It definitely lives up to its name. This isn't a quick wash cycle for lightly soiled dishes. I wish I had a GoPro so that I could see the inside. It sounds like a lake in there. It gets the dishes clean and the dishes are steaming hot when its done. The other night I washed a stainless steel pan I had used to cook burgers in. It had burnt bits and grease all over it. After the cycle, there was a quarter inch spec of burnt burger on it. So close! All the other dishes were grease free, so I'm happy to say it just didn't distribute the grease everywhere else.

2. The front panel display. I like the color of digital green numbers on a black panel. The buttons are textile and responsive.

3. The black panel. My last Kitchenaid was stainless and it was absolutely horrible to take care of. Water spots galore on that front panel. It was before print shield, so I'm not sure how good stainless is now, but I really like the good ol' black panel. It's easy to wipe clean.

4. Slide up detergent dispenser. They must have finally run out of the old, flip up dispensers, because mine came with the slide up. It's nice not to have to worry what I put in the front of my bottom rack.

1. Part of the reason that I'm so late with the update is that the first one came with a leaky door on the left side. When I got the box the left corner of the box was wet. When I felt the insulation under the door it was wet on the left side. The door was not closing well either. So, I believe the dishwasher was layed face down and the pump water that comes in the dishwasher leaked out. Then once it was place right side up, it leaked out of the door. I called sears and they remedied the situation and let me know the next dishwasher would be inspected at the warehouse before being shipped to me.

2. Rinse aid is necessary to get things totally dry. With my last Kitchenaid, there was no need to use rinse aid. It had an exhaust fan and prodry option.
I'm not sure I can truly count this as a con, because this dishwasher has to make a price point and there are more expensive dishwashers that have the turbo dry option if you pay for it.

3. Super long pots and pans cycle. We are talking 4 hours folks, if you select heated dry and sanitize. This used to not bother me, I would just set my old dishwasher on before bed and in the morning I was good-to-go, but the 1 hour wash has spoiled me a bit. I have to admit it's kinda nice to be able to do a load and get it done before bed if I wish.

So, overall I'm very happy with my purchase. Thanks for all the help and suggestions!

Here are a few pictures

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Post# 1032852 , Reply# 62   5/17/2019 at 00:27 (423 days old) by Mrsalvo (New Braunfels Texas)        

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Will be replying here, 2 threads same topic. I like your dishwasher and I will be keeping this in mind when my KA goes down for a 4th time. I'll be keeping my eye out on a sale. I like the racks.
Interesting that Lowes tried to steer me towards a Fridgadaire, having low repair calls. I looked at one, but politely declined. I don't trust Whirlpool anymore.
Thank you.


Post# 1032855 , Reply# 63   5/17/2019 at 01:21 (423 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

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Just to say, seems it's a misconception that stainless steel dishwasher tanks retain heat by nature moreso than plastic.† They require insulation on the exterior.

A simple test ...

Hold a stainless steel or other metal pan on your hand and pour boiling water into it ... see how long you can hold it.† Feel the heat passing through?

Now do that with a plastic bowl (of sturdy enough material to handle the temperature).† Not so much heat passing through, right?

Post# 1032881 , Reply# 64   5/17/2019 at 11:21 (422 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        

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Thanks for the detailed follow-up! Nice machine for the price you got it for.  Sears is capable of some great deals, ours closed last summer and I was sorry to see it go.

Post# 1032885 , Reply# 65   5/17/2019 at 11:41 (422 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
I feel you made the better choice John;

Before my dad passed, he had the Bosch with the annealed stainless tub over plastic.
That design was fine, but after only three years, it quit. Trouble code said wash motor fail. After my sister bought the house from us siblings, she got a Whirlpool which has been fine thus far.
How do you like living there? We thought about relocating south after 2006, as we both lost our jobs here in Mi. in '07, and '08 respectively. We couldn't get squat for the house as the market crashed, and we were both over 45 years of age. So with over 80% equity to lose if we moved, we decided to stay. I ended up not filing for my unemployment extension, and took a job paying half of my 31 year career income with zero benefits. I stuck it out 2 years. but could not get any decent raises. My folks became ill, and needed help, so I left it to care for and help them and my siblings do it. I'm now 59, and awaiting to draw my retirement. Hopefully 3 more years, if the stock markets don't decline again, and mess with 401k's, pensions, etc., My spouse is master degree'd, and found a job out of California almost right away, but had to travel every week for several years. Two years to Little Rock weekly. It worked out, as now works remotely from home.
Best of luck to you and yours. if applicable.
Peace!, brothers from the mitten here.

Post# 1032892 , Reply# 66   5/17/2019 at 12:38 (422 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Agreed, stainless steel does allow heat to pass through it much more than plastic due to its conductive properties, but that is greatly minimized once you add closed cell sponge and fiberglass insulation into the equation.

The first fill in a stainless tub there will be loss of heat as it absorbs into the steel. That's as far as most of the heat escapes, thanks to the insulation. Since the steel absorbed heat on the first fill, subsiquent fills will now heat up quicker due to the steel acting as a passive heating element.

For example: take that same stainless pot and put closed cell sponge and fiberglass insulation around it. Pour the boiling water in it and into the plastic bowl. Let it sit for a couple minutes. Empty the bowls. Now pour boiling water back in the plastic bowl and the insullated stainless bowl. 2 minutes later take the temperature and see which bowl was able to keep the water temp higher.

Stainless tubs will retain more heat, because it stores heat in the steel while the plastic tub allows the heat to drain out with the water.

Plastic tubs are great when you have 750 watt heating elements, but now we are dealing with 400 watt elements and washers can use all the help they can to get water temperature up quicker.

Post# 1032894 , Reply# 67   5/17/2019 at 13:39 (422 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

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The difference in running cycle water temps between a stainless vs a plastic tub will be so slight to not be of any practical advantage either way. What is a couple degrees in the grand scheme of things?

Post# 1032899 , Reply# 68   5/17/2019 at 14:48 (422 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture

Sorry, about your dad.

Yeah, Michigan has been a tough place to live in the last 15 years. I made a lot of good memories there, but I love North Carolina. Glad things have worked out for you all now, fellow Michigander. I'm still a die hard Lions fan and looking forward to hopefully a better season this year. Enjoy your summer up there.


You are welcome! Yeah, Sears will have some really good deals. Ours is closing in 6 months. They are putting a Publix in the mall to replace it.

Post# 1032904 , Reply# 69   5/17/2019 at 17:01 (422 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
SS Vs Plastic DW Tanks

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With the thousands of DWs I have dealt with I can discern no performance differences that are attributable to whether the machine has a SS or Plastic tank, or for that matter a porclean on steel tank.


There are significant differences in drying ability of the hundreds of different DW designs that have been produced over the past 60+ years but drying ability is really a matter of heat and ventilation etc.


The only real difference between SS & Plastic is fire risk and SS recycles more readily than plastic when the DW gets scraped.



Post# 1032908 , Reply# 70   5/17/2019 at 19:27 (422 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Bosch 800 Series

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About a year ago we bought a new house and put in a Bosch 800 Series Machine.  Won't buy another.  We've had two others, older models in other houses and they were fine.  This one has a filter that is not self cleaning.  After about a month the interior took on this awful odor.  We discovered it was the filter and now if we don't clean it at least once a week the dishwasher smells awful.


We don't rinse dishes we just knock food off or scrape if needed.  The machine cleans pretty well but the cycles are long.  I don't hate the racks but will likely replace it in the next year or so.  The filter is a pain too clean.  It's not a quick rinse, you have to scrub it with a brush to get it clean.

Post# 1032935 , Reply# 71   5/18/2019 at 04:40 (422 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        

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So, I decided to update my bitchy post with photos and as I looked at the glasses in the photos I noticed that the build up on our filter everyday could be our smoothies.  I never thought about it until I looked at these photos.  So I guess the question to the experts is, should this matter?  The smoothies are things like fruit, spinach and Kale.  They are liquified in a Vitamix.  Shouldn't what's left of these get washed down the drain?


The picture of this filter is two days worth and if I don't clean it by the end of the week it is covered thick and stinks.  The other pictures are of a typical load for us.  I run it every couple of days and as I said we don't rinse.  I suppose if we rinsed the smoothie glasses we might not get the build up.  It just bugs me because we never had this in any of our vintage machines or the Bosch we had in the old house.

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Post# 1032943 , Reply# 72   5/18/2019 at 07:40 (421 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Dishwashers With Filters

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I think everyone knows that I hate DWs with filters, they always start to stink and your final rinse water is always being drawn over and through the muck on the filter.

DWs with filters just lead people into rinsing the dishes before loading wasting water and time. I remember when I was in HS one of best friends Moms got a new KA KDC-16 DW [ we had a 1966 KM 400 DW built by D&M at the time ] and I asked her why she was rinsing all the dishes when loading, I said we never did with our DW. She said it was either rinse the dishes now or clean the messy filter every few days and so she always rinsed.

I have posted pictures of a typical load we do in our WP PC DWs, I can tear the complete pump apart in one of our DWs and not find a thimble full of gunk stuck in it.

Hi Chach, you might try putting about 2 TS of DW detergent on the door when you start the DW cycle, having detergent in the first fill might reduce the gunk that gets stuck on the filter.

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Post# 1032957 , Reply# 73   5/18/2019 at 10:33 (421 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Very nice John! I was looking for an old Power Clean, but unfortunately none came up around here. How does the chopper system work for the new Maytags? It looks a lot different than the voyager models. Is it more like the power clean systems?

Post# 1032959 , Reply# 74   5/18/2019 at 10:51 (421 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Also, how many gallons does a power clean use and how much time for the cycles?

Post# 1032961 , Reply# 75   5/18/2019 at 11:24 (421 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Do you scrape the inside of the glasses? If not that might help with your filter trapping the fiber and fruit pulp or whatever else is being left inside. I don't rinse either and use a silicone spatula for scraping. For glasses with fiber or pulp inside, I usually insert the spatula and give it a whirl around and pull that stuff out.

Post# 1032967 , Reply# 76   5/18/2019 at 13:08 (421 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

Fibrous deposits are the bain of any DW.

You either have the redeposited and need insane amounts of water or you have a filter that - if loaded with such amounts - dosen't self clean as well.

The old flat screen filter design by BSH was more self cleaning but used more water (Auto cycles basicly always ran pre washes).

The new one is finer and such tiny fibres often just get cought in it.

Also, if the load isn't verry soiled but has lots of fibre in it, as the sensor is behind the filter, it might run a lower fill count cycle which hinders the self cleaning ability.

Might be a good idea to just flush the items with those residues ones quickly.
Just a quick fill-up and dump.
Should be only a couple of items, so no huge waste.

On the topic of the last rinse water getting pulled through the accumulated dirt:
a) At least it dosen't get sprayed back on.
b) Yeah, it the dirt gets probably the biggest water flow of any thing in the machine.
c) After being submerged in 140F+ water for an hour or more, is it really dirt?

Post# 1032969 , Reply# 77   5/18/2019 at 13:40 (421 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
I have a chance to get a Whirlpool DU850SWPS4 for $50. Itís in good condition. Thought I might give it a run. Is this a good model?

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Post# 1032994 , Reply# 78   5/18/2019 at 18:54 (421 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
That is a Dura wash dishwasher and not a power clean.

Post# 1032997 , Reply# 79   5/18/2019 at 20:51 (421 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Whirlpool DW in reply # 77

combo52's profile picture

Hi John, That is one of the basic WP machines designed to compete with GEs builder models, they are decent basic machines but I would skip it for your main DW needs.


We have smoothies almost every day and there is no way I am going to rinse or scrape the insides of glasses before putting them in a DW, Not when you can buy an American Union built Maytag DW for the same or less money that does not have a filter and gets everything clean without leaving crap for me to clean out by hand.


A 140F water does not sterilize the food waste in the filter, it may hold germs at bay for an hour or so till the machine cools off and the germs start multiplying again like crazy at which point they start to smell.



Post# 1033005 , Reply# 80   5/18/2019 at 22:46 (421 days old) by Tomdawg (Des moines)        
Whirlpool total coverage spray arm

I have a whirlpool TOL with total coverage spray arm- I was able to take a kitchen aid ĎXí spray arm and see the difference. The total coverage spray arm does do better, but not by much. Also my dishwasher can take up to 4 hours. I would definitely choose the maytag!

Post# 1033008 , Reply# 81   5/19/2019 at 00:18 (421 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Thanks John and appnut. Iíll hold off.

Towdog I also have the X arm left from my old Kitchenaid.

I got the Kenmore. Iím actually impressed with the 1 hour wash. Does your Whirlpool have that option?

Post# 1033682 , Reply# 82   5/26/2019 at 16:55 (413 days old) by dylanmitchell (Southern California)        
Cascade with Phosphates Professional Fryer Boil Out

dylanmitchell's profile picture
What current model year dish washer clean well, use the most water, and have a grinder? I'm also looking to replace my dishwasher.

If you're having trouble with build up on you "fryer" you may want to try Cascade with Phosphates Professional Fryer Boil Out with phosphate, sodium carbonate, non-ionic surfactant, and chlorine bleach.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO dylanmitchell's LINK

Post# 1033770 , Reply# 83   5/27/2019 at 22:49 (412 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
I can vouch for how STICKY fiber is on the filters of dishwashers.
The pic I included portrays the fibers left from a glass of psyllium husk powder, that I mildly rinsed.
One glass. One wash. This will stay on till I clean it. It will attract more debris.
The filter in my KA is virtually self cleaning. Load after load.
Except, when faced with fiber.
For some reason that never comes off.
Iíve had pieces not come off of spoons! Unless I scraped It off with another spoon.
Itís incredible stuff. I canít really blame the machine or filter after experiencing psyllium husk powder.

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Post# 1033792 , Reply# 84   5/28/2019 at 09:55 (411 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Cascade Fryer Boil Out

chachp's profile picture


If I use the Cascade Fryer Boil Out (provided I can find it) will I do any damage to my dishwasher considering it was not designed for that kind of detergent?  We have a Restaurant supply store a few miles up the road I can check with them on it.


It's one year old, is all stainless on the inside.  I think some have a plastic bottom but mine does not if that matters.


Post# 1033794 , Reply# 85   5/28/2019 at 10:46 (411 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Cascade Fryer Boil Detergent

combo52's profile picture
On newer DWs with long cycles it could destroy everything from the main pump, nylon coated racks, plastic wheels to say nothing of your dishes.

The softer your water the faster this can happen, Be Careful.


Post# 1033800 , Reply# 86   5/28/2019 at 11:43 (411 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Fryer Boil Out

chachp's profile picture


Thanks John.  I had a feeling that would be the answer.  I appreciate the suggestion Matthew but I think I'll stay away from the Boil Out.  To add insult to injury we have a water softener so it sounds like that would be even worse. 


I have been putting a couple of Tablespoons of soap on the door before I start the dishwasher as you suggested along with a Finish tab in the dispenser.  I haven't checked the filter in a couple of days but the dishwasher isn't smelling yet as it would have been so that may be helping.



Post# 1033817 , Reply# 87   5/28/2019 at 16:04 (411 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Seems like nothing will deal well with fiber - except our intestines. I guess that is why is it recommended to eat as it will clean out anything in there that is left and then keep humans healthier in the process.

Post# 1033860 , Reply# 88   5/29/2019 at 09:14 (410 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Fiber In Dws

combo52's profile picture
There is absolutely no fiber ever left in my WP Power Clean DW,

I hope it does not put it at risk of getting colon cancer, LOL


Post# 1033863 , Reply# 89   5/29/2019 at 12:53 (410 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        

chachp's profile picture


I can guarantee there is much fiber getting into my body as well as whatever is left in the Dishwasher.  I know, TMI.

Post# 1033888 , Reply# 90   5/29/2019 at 19:15 (410 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan)        

Doesn't the PowerClean rely more on centrifugal force to keep the fumundas out of circulation rather than fine filtering?

Post# 1033891 , Reply# 91   5/29/2019 at 19:38 (410 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
Centrifugal force

Would make sense that it handels fibre well then.

Like a bagless vacuum: Getting the heavier denser parts via force is easy, getting the verry fine things requires fine filters.

Post# 1034416 , Reply# 92   6/4/2019 at 22:47 (404 days old) by Mrsalvo (New Braunfels Texas)        

mrsalvo's profile picture
JohnnyMac, want to ask you how are you liking your dishwasher? I went to a Hometown Sears store today to look at one but the store is closing and they had signs everywhere all sales final and no returns, no checks accepted. Guess the warranties were voided too. It's getting hard to find a store that will be in business. I watched the video and liked what I saw. My KA screwed up again last night, soap didn't dissolve this time, but it had heat. So tired of the reliability issues. Also, what detergent did you say you were using? RinseAid??


Post# 1034548 , Reply# 93   6/5/2019 at 11:38 (403 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Hey Mrsalvo,

I was meaning to update everyone, but coaching baseball, end of year for kids, ect. has gotten in the way. So, just to make a long story short, I have returned the Kenmore 13229 and bought the Maytag MDB8989. When I get time to do a little write up I will go into greater detail. Until then, its a good washer for the money. However, if you are able to spend $200 more I would recommend the Maytag.

Post# 1034594 , Reply# 94   6/5/2019 at 17:41 (403 days old) by Mrsalvo (New Braunfels Texas)        

mrsalvo's profile picture
Oh, I'm really looking forward to hearing from you, your experiences. I'm shopping around too. Went to Home Depot yesterday and they had a lot on GE's, hadn't really considered that brand before, but they didn't look shabby at all. Had one salesman tell me to kind of steer clear of any buttons located at the top of the door as steam can accumulate around them and eventually give me problems in the future. I didn't think about something like that happening. Thinking about an LG, too. Decisions! Decisions!


Post# 1035187 , Reply# 95   6/12/2019 at 18:36 (396 days old) by nmassman44 (Boston North Shore Massachusetts)        

nmassman44's profile picture
I have an LG dishwasher that is going on itís 2nd year and absolutely no issues to report. I am very happy with it. It holds a ton of dishes and every load is spotless that comes out of it. The LG LDF 5545 that I have replaced a 10 year old Miele LaPerla that lost its mind...control computer....I hated to part with it but to repair would have been putting another $1000 in it, at that price, a new one made more sense.

Post# 1037601 , Reply# 96   7/9/2019 at 13:02 (369 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Just to update everyone, I'm on my 5th dishwasher...

So to quickly sum everything up:

I first bought the Kenmore 13229. The first one came with a leaky door so it was returned.

The second one came and was working fine, definitely worth the price, but I found myself wondering what if on the Maytag 8989. So, I returned the Kenmore and bought the Maytag.

The first Maytag had a dent in the far right corner so bad that the bottom rack couldn't even be put back in the machine without turning it sideways and was returned. I even noted to the girl at Lowes that the box looked pretty beat up when she was bringing it out to me, but she said they all look this way and it will be fine...

The second one washed well in the beginning, but the powerdry stopped working within the first 2 weeks. The machine would go into a wash cycle. Toward the end of the wash cycle all the lights on the machine would turn off for a few minutes and the machine wouldn't do anything, the wash light would then come back on for a few minutes without the machine doing anything, then it would go into dry mode, but the fan would never run. I had a repair man come out and I let him know what was going on. He ran the diagnostics program and said everything was working fine...Took him all of ten minutes and also told me to never run the dishwasher on sanitize or it will eventually melt the control board... After he left there was still no powerdry. Maybe I wasn't paying as much attention as when I first got the machine, but it seemed like it wasn't using as much water anymore. It would do a fill and only empty a very small amount of water and reuse most of the water from the initial fill. This would be evident in the sink disposer drain and by morning all that water would condensate on the dishes and there would be an off smell of dirty dishwater in there. I was still within my 30 days and decided to return this washer.

On to my 5th dishwasher. I decided to give Bosch a try. I decided on the SHP865WF5N 500 series. I was a little worried about the tines, but the key is the adjustable tines. I can fit 20 cups on the top rack (5 less than I can in a whirlpool machine). There is a section of tines that are too small to put any cups in, but I find it perfect for lids. I can also drop the second rack all the way down and still have the second rack wash arm clear all my large plates. This allows me to put extra tall cups and water bottles on the second rack and still be able to use the 3rd rack for utensils. This was something I could not do with Whirlpool machines. The second rack wash arm would hit plates at its lowest setting. At it highest setting I would have to remove the 3rd rack.

It's the most powerful post 2012 dishwasher I've ever owned. When the sump empties into the sink disposer it does it with more power than the 2015 Kitchenaid, Maytag 8989, or Kenmore 13229. I would like to get a GoPro inside to witness the wash action, but I do know it has enough power to flip full size Tupperware food storage containers and by the sound of the wash action it sounds extremely powerful. So far every dish has come out spotless.

Speaking of spotless, the stainless steel is not on this model. However, 3 coats of Johnson's paste wax has solved that. The stainless steel on this model is magnetic.

Drying action is ok. With the extra dry option, you don't need drying agent. I've used cascade drying agent set on level 2 with the sanitize option enabled. With this setup you don't need extra dry.

The Bosch offers lots of nice cycle options. It's got your basic Heavy, Auto, Normal cycles, but it also has a 30 minute wash for light loads that you might need done in the middle of the day. It has a half load option that cuts 30 minutes from the wash time, sanitize, extra dry, and delicate options that you can add to every cycle except the 30 minute cycle. It also allows you to digitally turn off the drying agent or set the appropriate level.

I set this dishwasher to Heavy or Auto with the Sanitize option enabled and the drying agent level set at 2. In just under 2 hours everything is clean and dry.

I just had some weird luck with machines. The Kenmore is a good buy for $400. In that price range I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. I'm not sure what to say about the Maytag. The cleaning seemed great in the beginning. It seemed like it used more water than it did toward the end.

I do have to say, everything seems like high quality from the Bosch. From the packaging, to the motor, to the interior. I wish I would have taken some pictures of how well it was packaged, but I was totally over it and just wanted to get a machine installed. The great thing too is it was put together here in North Carolina.

For all those dishwasher shopping I hope you have better luck than me. I will say that I am grateful with how everything ended, because I am extremely happy with the Bosch!

Post# 1037656 , Reply# 97   7/9/2019 at 18:52 (369 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Wow, that is quite the Dishwasher Caper.
Sorry it took you so many machines.
It really disturbs me the sheer amount of good machines that get damaged and destroyed in shipping.
Probably all to get trashed. Such a waste.

The Maytag issues are concerning.
WP makes a dam good dishwasher, but I'm not surprised to hear that they are starting to have quality issues.
WP has been rabidly cost-cutting the past few years due to looming materials costs.
And now a huge tariff headwind on imports and raw materials.
They gonna be hurting for a while......

Either way, glad to hear Bosch has not let that stuff get them down!
Bosch is always my 'Plan B.'

Post# 1037684 , Reply# 98   7/10/2019 at 01:07 (369 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
Thanks John

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Thanks John. Yeah, it was hard to steer away from Whirlpool. Iím originally from Stevensville, MI. 10 miles from Benton Harbor. Whirlpool employed many people from my area during their glory days. Growing up in the early 80ís in the Mecca of household appliances was a sight to behold.

Post# 1037746 , Reply# 99   7/10/2019 at 15:14 (368 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

Welcome to the Bosch DW family. They are great machines. I find that there is significantly less fiber or particle buildup when I run either the Auto or Heavy cycle versus Normal because of the prewash. I generally use a bit of dishwashing gel in the prewash to help remove some scuz. I like to just rinse the filter off at least every other cycle to make sure no large debris are stuck. We rarely find items that are not clean. It generally is due to poor placement. We tend to not use the Sanitize option because the Auto cycles rinse is set to 156įF which is exactly 1į higher than the sanitize cycle in our old Whirlpoo. Normal cycle is 7į. Drying results are better to boot, however I wish there was a fan and circulation to assist. Enjoy your new machine. They really are enjoyable.

Post# 1037748 , Reply# 100   7/10/2019 at 15:17 (368 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        
Side note...

The Heavy cycle on my machine only sprays the bottom rack during the wash phase, so I find that the heavy soiled item needs to be on the lower rack for best results. I wish the Auto cycle on my machine would heat up to 150įF if needed instead of 130į for this reason.

Post# 1037753 , Reply# 101   7/10/2019 at 16:03 (368 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        

iheartmaytag's profile picture

"never run the dishwasher on sanitize or it will eventually melt the control board...  "


This honestly doesn't make sense.   I think it was a lazy i.e. A&E service man saying this.  Probably along the same training that the one had that told me the pump was supposed to cavitate low on water, and the vapor door/dry didn't have to work just up the rinse aid., and if you want clean dishes you have to wash them first, and Cascade detergent is horrible you shouldn't use it.


It's these lazy service persons that are giving some of the machines and their manufacturers a bad name. 


Full disclosure:  I hate A&E factory service and they will never be allowed in my home again.  The problem I had with the machine was repaired by myself by simply replacing the defective fill valve, and I have owned the machine for six, going on seven years.  Wash nearly every load on sanitize, and have never melted the control board, even when the vent was malfunctioning.

Post# 1037777 , Reply# 102   7/10/2019 at 19:14 (368 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

They are trash. One tech told me his 18 yo son was in training. I highly doubt he would be successful as his father wasnít all that great. Now one argument about Cascade being bad I kind of agree with. The ActionPacs are far too sudsy and cause some cavitation in my Bosch with lightly soiled loads.

Post# 1037793 , Reply# 103   7/10/2019 at 21:19 (368 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

I've had one experience with A&E, warranty replacement of the drive pulley/clutch on my Neptune TL.† The tech wasn't horrendous.† She arrived within the stated timeframe, confirmed the problem, and had the part on the truck.† She had a some trouble getting the replacement installed because there are two styles of basket drives, one has an extra piece, the other doesn't.† Replacements include the extra piece, which is to be discarded if not needed.† She tried to install it with the extra piece and it wouldn't fit properly.† I pointed out the problem, she accepted the advice without question, got it done and went on her way ... but I can't say how long it would have taken her to figure out the problem if I hadn't provided the tip.

Post# 1037811 , Reply# 104   7/11/2019 at 03:04 (368 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

It is shocking how far and few between female technicians are over here, no matter the field...
Kinda sad...

Post# 1037825 , Reply# 105   7/11/2019 at 06:09 (367 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Female Service Techs

combo52's profile picture

Hi Henrik, I totally agree with post # 104,


 Unfortunately it is not common in the US to see female techs either, I have thought that this is a great field for men or women. Back in the late 70s Sears trained quite a few women techs but I have not seen one since the 80s in the appliance field.


Attention Employment Opportunity : , We are looking for a person to hire and train for an exciting career selling  and servicing major appliances.


We are located in Maryland and also work in Washington DC, this area is among the best places to live and work in the world, get in touch with me if interested.


John L.

Post# 1037990 , Reply# 106   7/12/2019 at 13:48 (366 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        
Dishwasher detergents

iheartmaytag's profile picture

I have found it depends on the water what detergent works best for me.  When we lived on a farm with  HARD well water, Electrasol gave us the best results.  In town, Cascade gives me the best results.  I agree with the action packs, more of an economy version.  I use the Platinum, and have no complaints. 


I have also used Finish Quantum with no complaints, I just prefer the Cascade.


I will note that the Commercial (phosphated stuff)  worked well with my older machine that washed at 160 and had a short wash, but I find it tends to leave a white film on the dishes in the HE machine, even when running High temp wash/sanitize rinse.

Post# 1038205 , Reply# 107   7/14/2019 at 13:42 (364 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

The new Cascade Complete Platinum is great except for the foaming. P$G needs to address this!

Post# 1038239 , Reply# 108   7/14/2019 at 17:47 (364 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

I've been using up a small stash of Cascade (non-Complete) Platinum pacs.† They cause so much foaming that I once heard my DD top-off the fill level twice during the prewash period ... which I've never heard it do at all in the 15+ years prior.

I can say Platinum handles egg residue very nicely ... and I can also say it doesn't touch tea stains at all ... and I can also say that I don't care for the lingering scent, which is lessened by running the Heavy cycle that has 3 after-rinses.

Post# 1038462 , Reply# 109   7/16/2019 at 20:01 (362 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
Finish Powerball

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Up until last year I used Cascade Complete powder. It worked great. Then it started leaving a slippery feeling on dry dishes. I then switched to Cascade platinum tabs. Everything was great until about a month ago and then same feeling on the dishes. I tried the plain olí Finish Powerball Deep Clean that came with my Bosch and no more slippery dishes. When the two samples ran out I tried the Cascade Platinum tabs and once again slippery dishes. Iíve since ditched the Cascade and went back with Finish. Iím thinking they changed something in their powder formula and it has since made its way into the tabs.

Post# 1044635 , Reply# 110   9/12/2019 at 12:37 (304 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        
Psyllium husk powder

johnb300m's profile picture
Hey yíall.
Figure Iíd share the state of my KA filter based machine after 3 days worth of dirty glasses from psyllium husk drinks.
Itís quite caked on. And will not self clean.
The dishes however are spotless.

I just have to be mindful to clean the filter after any fiber drinks I make.
And never really in other situations. It usually takes care of itself.

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Post# 1044645 , Reply# 111   9/12/2019 at 14:21 (304 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Old toothbrush....

chachp's profile picture


I have resorted to keeping an old soft toothbrush under the sink and every few loads I pull it out and clean it with the brush.  Still beats doing dishes by hand or rinsing everything!!

Post# 1044710 , Reply# 112   9/13/2019 at 05:18 (304 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

Reminds me of my mother using an old toothbrush to clean the old Maytag TL filter when I was little.

Post# 1044812 , Reply# 113   9/13/2019 at 19:50 (303 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs)        

twintubdexter's profile picture

There's nothing comical about colon cancer. I'm currently at Eisenhower Medical Center 6 days a week dealing with it...with only my dogs to talk to. Be happy.

Post# 1063364 , Reply# 114   3/15/2020 at 23:31 by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
my dishwasher experience

I have a Kenmore dishwasher model #665.13222. It has the powerwave wash arm which cleans just about everything I throw at it. I use smart wash high temp and heat dry with cascade complete and their matching rinse aid. One time, I ran it empty and I could clearly hear the force of the bottom spray arm. I also ran it with the door open with a bit of water in it, yet it shot water from the bottom arm, splashing me in my face and probably across the kitchen. That was unexpected. I bet it would've had a full charge if it was at its full capacity. It does alternate spray arms. I originally wanted the maytag for the grinder. We settled on this kenmore model. I do have soft water. Inside, it does have stainless steel. It's white on the outside.

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