Thread Number: 91246
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Suggested replacement for Miele W1986?
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|Post# 1157549   8/21/2022 at 16:02 (399 days old) by scottsb (New Jersey)  || |
We have a Miele washer and dryer pair (Novotronic W1986 and T1576) that was in our house when we bought it, and we've loved them. I had wanted to keep them running, but unfortunately our first washer repair need ran into the wall of them being 20-year-old machines: the drain pump is dead, and no replacement or alternate parts are available anywhere I can find. (I can find the EU pump that runs on 240v, but not the US/CA/MX pump that is 120v.)
So now I'm looking for a good replacement. My constraint that I have only 240v running to the machine location (ironic given the opposite is my issue with the motor). I also have a pretty narrow space available on the table/bench that seems to have been custom built for the current Miele set.
I could probably modify/cut the table to work with a larger unit that sits directly on the floor, but I don't want to run a new circuit if I can avoid it. It seems that the current Miele models have all switched to 120v supply in the US, though. Are there any options out there that would work for me?
(The dryer from the current Miele set is working fine, but I'd also be curious on advice about whether it would be worth replacing both together regardless.)
|Post# 1157561 , Reply# 1   8/21/2022 at 18:21 (398 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)  || |
Hopefully someone here knows where you can find a new pump. If not, I suggest you go with another Miele since you are used to the European way of fabric care now. Their W1 washers with TwinDos automatic detergent dispensers are wonderful. I have the WXR/TXR860 set which is quite pricy but to me it's worth having the touch screens and the ability to customize the options and then save my favorite cycles.
|Post# 1157589 , Reply# 2   8/21/2022 at 22:32 (398 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)  || |
|Post# 1157651 , Reply# 3   8/22/2022 at 23:41 (397 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))  || |
If you are open for some handy work and trial and error, you could try to either just replace the pump motor or the whole housing with a cheap, generic drain pump from another random washer.
The drain hose should be the same size, you might need to adapt the sump hose to the new pump and somehow fix the new housing to the frame.
Secondary option if you are electrically inclined but not mechanically would be to get a 240V drain pump from the EU, pull a new power supply from the main machine feed and use a relay to switch the 240V with the 120V coming from the control board.
The punp would run a little slow - but the machine wouldn't care much.
Of course, with any of that, make sure that it's the pump gone and and not the PCB perhaps.
Running a new circuit MIGHT not be necessary - though not up to code.
If there is a neutral there, you could run 2 120V outlets from each phase to ground.
That would make a new W1 set viable - both the washer and dryer run off of 120V lat below 15A.
If budget wasn't to tight, consider taking a look at the little giant washer and dryer from Mieles semi-professional / professional lineup.
Those run at 240V and are closer to your current machine in cycle time and offers (they can still run a boil wash while the W1 can't!).
The financially more viable most "drop in" kind if replacement would probably be Asko's current offering though.
As far as I am aware, all Asko washers and dryers run at 240V and any combination will run at 5kW total or less.
They are available in 2 sizes - and the dryers are available in vented, condenser or heatpump (my recommendation).
So, this would be the Miele professional 240V ventless set:
The slightly larger (deeper), vented Asko set would be:
Unfortunately, there only appears to be a vented, large dryer for Asko.
The slightly less deep Asko set that would offer a choice of dryer would be this:
Heatpump dryer highly recommend over the condenser at least.
Personally wouldn't recommend the US Bosch offering - mainly due to the dryer.
But if price is a concern, then Beko/Blomberg might be interesting to you!
Those are generally considered "entry level" over here but perform well and are a good price/performance value.
A ventless, heatpump set would be:
A vented set would be:
|Post# 1157754 , Reply# 4   8/24/2022 at 15:59 (396 days old) by canuck (Canada)  || |
I have an idea for you to keep your current dryer and get a new Miele W1 washer without having to do any electrical work. I have a 2 year old 240V Miele washer (the last ones made at 240V in Canada) and a 120V Miele T1 dryer. If you have a 240V splitter box from Miele that you use for your current 240V washer and 240V dryer, you can use one spot on the splitter for your current dryer and use the Miele 240V --> 120V splitter in the other 240 volt spot for the T1. I am doing this at my house but with washer being 240V and the dryer 120V. My T1 dryer came with the splitter for free so I'm not sure if a W1 washer would also come with this for free. Picture attached.
Alternatively, if you wanted to replace both machines, you can just use the Miele 240V --> 120V splitter for both the W1 and T1 without any electrical work or changes to your table.
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|Post# 1157818 , Reply# 5   8/25/2022 at 08:03 (395 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
While Miele does or did produce many parts in house for their appliances, not everything comes under that heading.
Often pumps, timers, solenoid valves and other bits came from third party manufacturers.
Pumps for Miele washers of 19XX and before vintage usually were made by Hanning.
Sadly MieleUSA tech/customer support is no longer what it once was, so getting any information via telephone or online regarding details about parts or installation is largely verboten.
To best of my knowledge W19XX series washing machines by Miele sold in USA used 230v-240v pumps at 50hz
My Miele washer is older than yours, and thus have spent more hours than care to recall sat sitting in front of computer researching and otherwise running spare parts to ground.
If you've not done so already suggest pulling electrical schematic papers from washer (should be just inside front door when swung open), and see what there is about wiring/power supply to pump.
|Post# 1157823 , Reply# 6   8/25/2022 at 09:47 (395 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))  || |
I thought it would be 240V too - Wouldn't even be surprised they are actually the same as the EU just relabled as 50Hz.
Those pumps are usually 4 poles or very cheap ones now are 2 poles sometimes even.
Only real way to make pumps even cheaper is saving on copper and those motors haven't been full motors.
Making it run at the correct speed there is kinda hard - they are technically "direct drive" so no belt reduction drive possibility like on washers or tumble dryers and (with until recently virtually no exception) no speed control. So making it the correct speed with an adaption of pole numbers is "expensive" and kinda hard - it would run to slow (?) at 6 poles aswell and way to fast at 2.
3 would be a little to fast but closer.
So they probably just used a 60Hz pump and adapted the programming - torque should be similar or a little higher, just the througput a little lower.
Either way, as long as the current pump is 240V it should work as a drop in replacement.
And the pump should be labelled at least with voltage and wattage.
Worst case then would be that the connectors are different - but I don't even think that would be the case.
Nowadays, Miele outsources a LOT more.
With many of these singular components you need an entirely different production line which is very expensive keeping it up.
Outsourcing does bring problems - often quality control cause you can't really control lifecycle quality control easily and it's the thing you can easily safe on as a producer.
BUT since you now are a customer yourself get a lot of the benefits from that (if a contract is broken you are out of any liability) AND often safe money which very easily makes it worth it.
At least the water proof hoses on mor current W1 washers over here now come from one of the biggest - usually considered "more lowend" - supplier for appliance components called "Bitron".
That is actually the source of the biggest issue with W1 washers currently - there were water path control issues leading to wrong error displays and cycle abortions.
They appear to make a lot of stuff - pumps, valves and even control boards.
I am ALMOST certain Miele outsourced PCB production for at least their main control board for that new W1 series to Bitron. It has certain programming decisions that point towards that since I only know them from other Bitron PCB machines and literally NO ONE ELSE does them that way.
Their motor controllers MIGHT be Bitron now aswell - though that seems less likely.
|Post# 1157843 , Reply# 7   8/25/2022 at 14:41 (395 days old) by richnz (New Zealand)  || |
the drain pumps are interchangeable between dishwashers and washing machines.
Older WAMA seem to have a fan of sorts on the back but newer ones don’t.
I don’t know what its like where you live.
|Post# 1157894 , Reply# 8   8/26/2022 at 01:31 (394 days old) by bewitched (Italy)  || |
sorry to disappoint you hene e but i had the chance to see carefully inside my washing machine and dishwasher and on all the electronics board is clearly printed the Miele name. I have a w1 wcr890wps and a G6900. Same with the older w1 of my friend. The drain pumps were made by Hanning. The acqua stop has no labels on it. I can't really see why you (guess you're German, aren't you?) don't miss a chance to denigrate an excellent manufacturer of the few remained in your country. more equally top brands outsource much more than a pump or an acquastop from third parties. The now more famous Vzug of Switzerland sells rebadged Whirlpool machines and here Whirlpool is certainly not a brand famous for doing durable appliances.
|Post# 1158206 , Reply# 9   8/29/2022 at 18:07 (391 days old) by scottsb (New Jersey)  || |
Thanks for all the advice and input. I'm new to the forum and was expecting an email update for responses--since I didn't get one I assumed nobody replied. Thankfully I happened to check back!
A few replies & further notes:
1. I pulled out the current pump, and it is clearly labeled at 120v (photo attached), so a European pump would not be directly interchangeable. (@Launderess, it seems that this follows the pattern of what you mentioned here for a W1918: www.automaticwasher.org/c....)
2. While I'm fairly handy, I don't think I have the time available right now to do the deeper kind of retrofitting that @henene4 suggests.
3. If we replace (as we expect we probably need to do at this point), we'd not be looking for a true budget machine, but a new Little Giant washer is more than we are able/willing to spend. Budget for washer alone would be firmly under $2k, and ideally closer to or under $1k.
Next main question:
Our current Miele dryer is a vented gas model, and we like the low cost/fast run time it provides (as a young family where we sometimes need to turn around clean clothing fast). Since compact gas dryers that would be drop-in replacements pretty much no longer exist, I've gathered a heat pump dryer would be the next best option (short of switching to a non-compact, American-size model to stick with gas/vented). A typical load for us mixed clothes & towels at probably 80% capacity in our current dryer, on a "Cotton Normal+" with "Gentle" mode. This typically takes 50-60 min. Could anybody give me a feel for what the real-life runtime would be with a load like that in a dryer like Miele's current base-model T1 (TXD160WP)?
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|Post# 1158221 , Reply# 10   8/29/2022 at 22:47 (390 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)  || |
|Post# 1158298 , Reply# 11   8/31/2022 at 04:11 (389 days old) by richnz (New Zealand)  || |
Interesting that this is a 90w pump.
Did it have to lift water to a particular height.
Look on eBay at Miele dishwasher pumps.
They might not have the same 90w but they might just do the trick.
|Post# 1158325 , Reply# 12   8/31/2022 at 14:16 (389 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Buy another Miele 19XX washer in good to excellent condition to use as parts donor.
|Post# 1158327 , Reply# 13   8/31/2022 at 14:26 (389 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
|Post# 1158344 , Reply# 14   8/31/2022 at 20:02 (388 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))  || |
Yeah, I heard really weird stuff an being across the pond, that never had any rhyme or reason.
90W would have been the pump for higher maximum drain over here - if I am not mistaken?
The machine in question is from the "deeper" lineup, right? Maybe they thought the potentially greater laundry quantity necessitated the bigger pump.
On the T1 dryer times:
They aren't as fast as a normal vented dryer.
But not slow as some might believe.
I had the EU version with the higher efficiency heat pump that is basically a little more efficient but a little slower than the version you have.
I don't think any load ever took longer than 2h.
And that were like 8 pairs of jeans on the already quite extended denim cycle. Even my largest shirt loads of 30+ T-Shirts never took quite 2h.
A pillow might have - but I wouldn't count that.
One big thing is that there is kind of a bottom to dry times. Since the dryer dosen't heat, most items just don't give away moisture any faster than they can.
Trying to say: 3, 6, 9 or 12 shirts FOR ME at least all took about the same time - a bit shy of an hour. My bathrobe always took 1:20 - no matter if I added the bath mats or not.
So actually drying decent sized loads safes a lot of time!
The most annoying thing about that is drying Bedding.
With the Bedding cycle, you can dry bedding tangle free and actually dry about 95% of the time.
But to get there, I always had to split out the fitted sheets and dry them separately. Which ment 2-3h for what was all in all very little thin cotton fabric (2 bed sets, basically).
|Post# 1158637 , Reply# 15   9/4/2022 at 10:29 (385 days old) by scottsb (New Jersey)  || |
>With the Bedding cycle, you can dry bedding tangle free and actually dry about 95% of the time. But to get there, I always had to split out the fitted sheets and dry them separately.
@henene4 Why did you have to split them up? Because they wouldn't dry enough if you did them together? Also, are you saying they were dry at the end only 95% of the the time? What was the other 5% of the time like?
|Post# 1158661 , Reply# 16   9/4/2022 at 13:50 (385 days old) by Pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)  || |
i would reccomend this top load washer since it has good cleaning and rinsing power
|Post# 1158709 , Reply# 17   9/5/2022 at 05:01 (384 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)  || |
can you post photos of the complete pump? I want to see the water end, not the electrical end.
If we know what you have, we might be able to suggest a suitable replacement.
120 volt pumps will be thick on the ground in USA. You just have to find one that physically matches up. Dishwasher drain pump or washing machine drain pump. Could be from any brand machine.
Don't get bamboozled by the wattage, that doesn't matter. There are two similar technologies of pump, the newer type use much less power but work just as well. The older type have a fan on the back and use more power, the newer ones have no fan, and use less than half the watts for similar pump strength. You probably just need a generic 120 volt pump.
|Post# 1158710 , Reply# 18   9/5/2022 at 05:19 (384 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))  || |
Like, in 5% of the times it would tangle anyway.
If I mixed the sheets in, it would tangle most likely and once something tangles something, some patch will always damp.
If nothing major tangles, everything gets dry.
It just happened to happen once every now and then something caught something and then one or two items remained damp.
|Post# 1158719 , Reply# 19   9/5/2022 at 09:01 (384 days old) by scottsb (New Jersey)  || |
I'm away from home at the moment but will post pump pictures later. I did find a Miele dishwasher pump on eBay that match the "water end" from my memory but need to compare when I get home myself.
@Pierreandreply4 Curious about that Maytag recommendation. The research I've been doing suggests that Maytag is not very reliable these days, outside their commercial models, which I don't think that one is. Is there something special about that one?
|Post# 1158839 , Reply# 20   9/6/2022 at 04:57 (383 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)  || |
|Post# 1158937 , Reply# 21   9/6/2022 at 21:06 (382 days old) by scottsb (New Jersey)  || |
Here are photos of the other side of the motor.
I'm wondering if this dishwasher pump would fit. I don't have dimensions unfortunately, but just visually it looks very similar:
That's an eBay listing, but it actually appears to be available new too (cheaper somehow):
|Post# 1158942 , Reply# 22   9/6/2022 at 21:41 (382 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)  || |
|Post# 1159104 , Reply# 23   9/9/2022 at 03:05 (380 days old) by richnz (New Zealand)  || |
Does it turn freely?
It can be taken apart by pulling off the fan part (Not the impeller end).
There are two long screws that hold it together that can be undone with pliers.
|Post# 1159173 , Reply# 24   9/9/2022 at 21:37 (379 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
|Post# 1159223 , Reply# 25   9/10/2022 at 15:10 (379 days old) by scottsb (New Jersey)  || |
@richnz Yes, it turns freely. Why would I take it apart? Not sure I follow?
|Post# 1159356 , Reply# 26   9/11/2022 at 23:23 (377 days old) by richnz (New Zealand)  || |
It was in case the impeller being stuck was the issue.
It could also become a Frankenstein pump, where parts could be grafted from another.
It would be a shame to throw away a whole machine due to a pump.